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Post by jezmiller on Aug 4, 2015 17:24:40 GMT
For Henry Gordon Jago, I would add the Eccentric Trait - Pronounced and periodically pernicious propensity to allow the allure of alliteration to affect him.  |
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Post by Siskoid on Aug 4, 2015 19:15:55 GMT
FINALLY! Some playtesting debate One possible way to get around this is to give him the Cutting Edge Technology Trait, right? Between that, Boffin and Technically Adept, he should be able to make breakthroughs like K9's AI, while still respecting the apparent TL of his version of the year 5000. What do you think? In the absence of a defined game mechanic to represent uneven technological development, I think it works very well. Something that's bugged me for years is that there's nothing in the script to substantiate the near-universal assumption that Marius invented K9. Marius' own words are "You see, on Earth I always used to have a dog. But up here, with the weight penalty, well, it's just not possible. So I had K9 made up. He's very useful, my own personal data bank. He knows everything I know, don't you K9?" Marius was a medical doctor, a senior consultant. He was described as a specialist in "extraterrestrial pathological endomorphisms", so presumably in modern terms he was some kind of microbiologist - or micro-xeno-biologist, perhaps - although he shows expertise in other areas, such as brain surgery. But there's nothing in the televised episode to suggest that he had any kind of expertise in robotics, other than the fact that he owns K9. I've worked in hospital IT in the past. A senior consultant who wants a new computer system doesn't usually develop it him-or herself. He picks up the 'phone to the IT department and tells them what he wants. The way Marius phrases it sounds to me as though he did the same thing - called the Bi-Al Foundation's IT department and got them to put K9 together for him. Of course, "I had K9 made up" could simply mean that he designed K9 himself and handed the plans over to Bi-Al's tech support, but why would he be an expert in two such wildly unrelated fields as xeno-pathology and robotics? The only logical answer I can think of is that by his era, AI technology is modeled closely on human brains, and that an understanding of one derives from an understanding of the other. Ahem, anyway, getting back on topic... you show his Ingenuity as 7, which exceeds the human limit of 6. You also show his Resolve as 3, but he was quite a brave man, and not one to flinch from hard choices. "If I am taken over, I hope you won't hesitate to use that blaster on me. Because I shall certainly use mine on you". I would personally suggest dropping his Ingenuity back to 6 but upping his resolve to 4, and making the AoE ratings for artificial intelligence and robotics optional. The Cutting Edge Technology trait would apply if he were K9's inventor, but wouldn't be needed otherwise. I've been a lurker in your extracanonical sourcebooks for a while, btw, and I'm a big fan. I've found them very interesting and often very useful. You make some very good points. Yes to the attribute changes, no problem, by the way. But WAS he K9's inventor? Seems you've found the line that shows he wasn't. He could still have Cutting Edge Tech, because all that shows is ACCESS to higher tech, but I might remove the AI stuff from his sheet. |
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Post by Siskoid on Aug 4, 2015 19:19:28 GMT
For Henry Gordon Jago, I would add the Eccentric Trait - Pronounced and periodically pernicious propensity to allow the allure of alliteration to affect him. That's what Sesquipedalian is, it supersedes Eccentric. |
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Catsmate
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 5, 2015 9:19:37 GMT
FINALLY! Some playtesting debate One possible way to get around this is to give him the Cutting Edge Technology Trait, right? Between that, Boffin and Technically Adept, he should be able to make breakthroughs like K9's AI, while still respecting the apparent TL of his version of the year 5000. What do you think? In the absence of a defined game mechanic to represent uneven technological development, I think it works very well. Something that's bugged me for years is that there's nothing in the script to substantiate the near-universal assumption that Marius invented K9. Marius' own words are "You see, on Earth I always used to have a dog. But up here, with the weight penalty, well, it's just not possible. So I had K9 made up. He's very useful, my own personal data bank. He knows everything I know, don't you K9?" Marius was a medical doctor, a senior consultant. He was described as a specialist in "extraterrestrial pathological endomorphisms", so presumably in modern terms he was some kind of microbiologist - or micro-xeno-biologist, perhaps - although he shows expertise in other areas, such as brain surgery. But there's nothing in the televised episode to suggest that he had any kind of expertise in robotics, other than the fact that he owns K9. I've worked in hospital IT in the past. A senior consultant who wants a new computer system doesn't usually develop it him-or herself. He picks up the 'phone to the IT department and tells them what he wants. The way Marius phrases it sounds to me as though he did the same thing - called the Bi-Al Foundation's IT department and got them to put K9 together for him. Of course, "I had K9 made up" could simply mean that he designed K9 himself and handed the plans over to Bi-Al's tech support, but why would he be an expert in two such wildly unrelated fields as xeno-pathology and robotics? The only logical answer I can think of is that by his era, AI technology is modeled closely on human brains, and that an understanding of one derives from an understanding of the other. Ahem, anyway, getting back on topic... you show his Ingenuity as 7, which exceeds the human limit of 6. You also show his Resolve as 3, but he was quite a brave man, and not one to flinch from hard choices. "If I am taken over, I hope you won't hesitate to use that blaster on me. Because I shall certainly use mine on you". I would personally suggest dropping his Ingenuity back to 6 but upping his resolve to 4, and making the AoE ratings for artificial intelligence and robotics optional. The Cutting Edge Technology trait would apply if he were K9's inventor, but wouldn't be needed otherwise. I've been a lurker in your extracanonical sourcebooks for a while, btw, and I'm a big fan. I've found them very interesting and often very useful.
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 5, 2015 9:27:33 GMT
Well my take was that Earth in the beginning of the sixth millennium is a backward, isolated and generally unimportant place. Abandoned during the Solar Flares era (the result of some ill-advised solar engineering) it now has a population approaching two billion, from cryo-stasis survivors, natural and artificial births.
The fiddling with the sun was and attempt to end the Ice Age era; itself the result of some planetary engineering gone wrong.
The population has a bit of a grudge against the Galactic Federation who, in the view of Terran nationalists, didn't help them enough during the flare era (the advice to stop messing with technology you don't understand and leave Sol alone was not well received). Technologically Earth has regressed substantially, being a mix of 19th to 21st century, though with some advanced imports. There's a moderately effective embargo against importing advanced tech.
Of course the Feds have their own problems; the split that formed the Confederacy was peaceful enough (only a few million died) but the Confed is expanding faster and encroaching on areas the Fed think are theirs. That said the rivalry is generally peaceful. One thing both powers do agree on is the New Terran Empire (a rather grandiose name for a smallish, sub-galactic, power) is not getting control of Earth. There's too much social and cultural baggage there. Plus a lot of them, especially the non-humans, remember the last human Empire and not fondly.
The Time Agency was a joint project, it didn't last. Both factions now have limited time travel and are anxious to monopolise it. Though a few Agents simply went rogue and set up as Freetimers.
Both the Galactic Federation (actually eleven galaxies have significant membership), the Confederacy (also multi-galactic and other powers things are peaceful on the large scale. This won't last of course.
World Wars Four through Six didn't help things on Earth much either, lots of effort (and resources) that could have been used in rebuilding human civilisation on it's home were wasted. However after WW6 things are rather better. Of course there's still the lack of useful mineral resources on planet, asteroid mining and salvaging of surviving pre-flare bases is big business. What will become the Bio-al Foundation is being planned, and the Second Diaspora isn't too far off.
During the Supreme Alliance period, both before and during WW6, various 'Weird Technologies' were evaluated and tested. Hence the 'organic distillation' setup Greel used, research which would culminate in the New London Horror of von Wachten. Bio-tech was also popular, including weird cybernetic genemod animals.
Impressive work on the detail and potential plot hooks there. 19th to 21st century technology seems excessive, though; while the technological level of the Invisible Enemy isn't that remarkable by Whoniverse standards, it's still many centuries ahead of where we are now. The Doctor's talk of the "great breakout" suggests some kind of Renaissance in progress, in attitude towards the universe if not (necessarily) in technology - although an impetus to progress in one area does imply, at the least, a society that's interested in advancing rather than stagnating.
Gradually the terrestrial humans expanded outward again and were (as of The Invisible Enemy) preparing to leave the solar system once more. You're right about the "great breakout" suggesting that things have stabilised; Earth is probably pretty peaceful and unified again with space based industry and resource extraction supplying the planet. Likewise most of the rest of the galaxy have other things to concern them instead of meddling.
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 5, 2015 9:58:05 GMT
A few points:
The Saiph (p83, V2) "laser canon" should I assume be "laser cannon"
Sepulchre (p139, L3) "physical assess" should I assume be "physical access"
Rutan Healing Salve (p151, G2) The salve was initially obtained by Dr. Percival Ross (brother of the "Colonel" Ross who also appeared in Evolution) while he practiced medicine in Limehouse in London (and experimented on his patients). He later met with Breckinridge who financed his experiments after being forced to leave London rather hurriedly. While Breckinridge was more centre stage in Evolution Ross was the scientific brains of the project (he did manage to duplicate the salve).
If you like I'll stat him up and post the results? He's one of my favourite antagonists. Interestingly the book leaves the question of his death open...
The Starfleet Parallel (p170, X2) I suggest the phaser stats should be 2D6/L/L for disintegrate.
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Post by Siskoid on Aug 5, 2015 12:49:46 GMT
Well, the canonicity of all these stories is sometimes in doubt The stats you're offering are for Dr Ross, or for Breckinridge? And just stats or to accompanying essay as well? I haven't read Evolution, so I'll let MrHarry chime in here. |
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Post by jezmiller on Aug 5, 2015 12:59:01 GMT
That's a very good point. Marius may have merely been the designer, or indeed just the commissioner of K9, as a vessel for an experiment in neural-net computing. The roughly contemporaneous Mr Sin had a pig's cerebral cortex incorporated into its processor. If the computer circuitry and the pig brain were functioning as an integrated whole, it does suggest that the technology of this era leans towards AI implementations that mimic the pattern of an organic brain, closely enough for an organic brain - albeit a simple one - to be incorporated into a computer CPU. And Marius did understand brains enough to perform surgery on the Doctor's. So he might have designed K9's AI, or at least pioneered the concepts that the engineers who built K9 were following. The reason for Mr. Sin's partly-organic brain was never given on-screen, but McIntee's explanation was "the computer circuit makes it very efficient, but the pig part gives it a lust for blood and death, so that its attacks are more vicious than a pure machine’s would be", which makes sense to me. Walking around knifing people is a simple enough task that even we could probably build a robot to do it; Greel wouldn't have needed to use anything so exotic or (frankly) icky for Mr. Sin, unless he were trying to build sadism into it. K9 claimed to be "without emotional circuits, only memory and awareness". Yeah, right... "K9! Sulking is also an emotion! If you cannot be curious, then you cannot sulk". {Sulky silence} I wonder if his refusal to admit to emotion was more than a personality quirk, though? If previous AIs had required organic components to experience emotion, and those organic components had led to minor technical faults - homicidal mania, for instance - then an emotional AI would have been subject to widespread suspicion. If Marius had made a breakthrough in modeling an organic brain as an AI, allowing it to experience emotion without the need for an organic cortex, he might have felt inclined to keep quiet about it |
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Catsmate
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 5, 2015 13:25:03 GMT
That's a very good point. Marius may have merely been the designer, or indeed just the commissioner of K9, as a vessel for an experiment in neural-net computing. The roughly contemporaneous Mr Sin had a pig's cerebral cortex incorporated into its processor. If the computer circuitry and the pig brain were functioning as an integrated whole, it does suggest that the technology of this era leans towards AI implementations that mimic the pattern of an organic brain, closely enough for an organic brain - albeit a simple one - to be incorporated into a computer CPU. And Marius did understand brains enough to perform surgery on the Doctor's. So he might have designed K9's AI, or at least pioneered the concepts that the engineers who built K9 were following. The reason for Mr. Sin's partly-organic brain was never given on-screen, but McIntee's explanation was "the computer circuit makes it very efficient, but the pig part gives it a lust for blood and death, so that its attacks are more vicious than a pure machine’s would be", which makes sense to me. Walking around knifing people is a simple enough task that even we could probably build a robot to do it; Greel wouldn't have needed to use anything so exotic or (frankly) icky for Mr. Sin, unless he were trying to build sadism into it. K9 claimed to be "without emotional circuits, only memory and awareness". Yeah, right... "K9! Sulking is also an emotion! If you cannot be curious, then you cannot sulk". {Sulky silence} I wonder if his refusal to admit to emotion was more than a personality quirk, though? If previous AIs had required organic components to experience emotion, and those organic components had led to minor technical faults - homicidal mania, for instance - then an emotional AI would have been subject to widespread suspicion. If Marius had made a breakthrough in modeling an organic brain as an AI, allowing it to experience emotion without the need for an organic cortex, he might have felt inclined to keep quiet about it 
The idea that their AI technology was based on copies of organic brains, some sort of neural-net emulation is a good one and helps explain why Marius created K9, as a prototype for his concept.
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
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Favourite Doctors: Thirteen, Six, Five, Two, Eight, Eleven, Twelve, One, Nine...
Traits: Eccentric, Insatiable Curiousity.
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 5, 2015 13:26:37 GMT
Well, the canonicity of all these stories is sometimes in doubt The stats you're offering are for Dr Ross, or for Breckinridge? And just stats or to accompanying essay as well? I haven't read Evolution, so I'll let MrHarry chime in here. 
I have a bit of time atm when travelling to re-read the ebook and Evolution was a favourite of mine.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus 
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Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Aug 5, 2015 13:58:16 GMT
The stats you're offering are for Dr Ross, or for Breckinridge? And just stats or to accompanying essay as well? I haven't read Evolution, so I'll let MrHarry chime in here. Is there enough background for entries for both Ross and Breckenridge? I think I read Evolution back in January, so I'm not recalling it that clearly now. But if there's enough material to go on, it sounds good to me. |
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Post by Siskoid on Aug 5, 2015 14:06:02 GMT
It would probably work well as a combined entry, with both stat boxes on the same page with perhaps a shorter essay, seeing as they share the same story, but I don't know anything about them.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Post by misterharry on Aug 5, 2015 14:06:43 GMT
It would probably work well as a combined entry, with both stat boxes on the same page with perhaps a shorter essay, seeing as they share the same story, but I don't know anything about them. Yeah, that would probably work best. |
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Catsmate
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 5, 2015 14:11:15 GMT
OK, about one page then? Statting Ross will be easy enough but I'll need to re-read the book for Tobias Breckinridge.
BTW is there a template I should use?
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Post by misterharry on Aug 5, 2015 14:54:52 GMT
BTW is there a template I should use? can be found here. I just type mine out in Word format and Siskoid sorts out the page layout in the document. With two stats blocks, 500 words is likely to be very tight to fit it all on a single page. For a couple of mine with two stats blocks (the Nisbett Brothers, for example), I think around 300-350 words worked OK. Alternatively, a two-page entry would allow it to breathe a bit more, if it turns out to be longer. |
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Post by Siskoid on Aug 5, 2015 15:00:50 GMT
And make sure to send me a PM with the name you want to be credited with. Unless Catsmate is your real name.
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 5, 2015 15:10:29 GMT
Will do. Thanks. And sorry for derailing the thread.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Post by misterharry on Aug 5, 2015 15:12:08 GMT
Will do. Thanks. And sorry for derailing the thread. I see no derailing! |
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Post by Marnal on Aug 5, 2015 16:09:20 GMT
For what its worth, "A History" [written by the the master of Dr Who timelines - Lance Parkin] lists the following stories as taking place in and around the year 5000 AD. This might help you get a better overall idea of the tech level...
4850 Helicon Prime
4850 The Renaissance Man
4865 Death’s Deal
4870 Shockwave
4920 Revenge of the Swarm
5000 Invisible Enemy
5000 The Girl in the Fireplace
5000 K9 and the Beasts of Vega
5000 The Ice Warriors
5000 The Day of the Troll
5000 Emotional Chemistry
5002 The Butcher of Brisbane
5010 "The Keep"
5019 [Benny] The Vampire Curse: "Predating the Predators"
5050 Shroud of Sorrow
5087 [Torchwood] Adam
5087 Borrowed Time
5100 The Time of the Doctor [River Song scenes]
5100 Night and the Doctor: First Night
5100 The Battle of Demon's Run: Two Days Later
5120 Revenge of the Swarm
5123 Let's Kill Hitler
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daemos
2nd Incarnation
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Post by daemos on Aug 6, 2015 9:52:34 GMT
Talking of timelines, "The Drosten's Curse" needs to be moved further down than its current position because on page 38 there's a reference to K9. Due to the absence of both him and Leela, I would suggest it would fit between "The Invasion of Time" and " The Ribos Operation".
Regards
Iain
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Post by misterharry on Aug 6, 2015 10:46:55 GMT
Talking of timelines, "The Drosten's Curse" needs to be moved further down than its current position because on page 38 there's a reference to K9. Due to the absence of both him and Leela, I would suggest it would fit between "The Invasion of Time" and " The Ribos Operation". Regards Iain Yes, this is a strange one. The Death Pit, the short story which forms almost the opening quarter of the The Drosten's Curse, was intended to take place after The Deadly Assassin. The line you're referring to has been changed between the short story and the novel. Originally, the Doctor said he'd like to get or make a machine that trundled. In the novel, it now says that he knows a dog that trundles. So although there's no explicit reference to K9, the inference is clear. The end result is we have a short story that was intended to take place before the Doctor had met K9, and a novel which incorporates that same story within it and which is intended to take place after he's met K9. My suggestion is either to ignore the revised line (as K9 isn't mentioned by name), or move The Drosten's Curse to after The Invasion of Time and remove The Death Pit from the timeline to avoid confusion. |
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Catsmate
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 6, 2015 10:50:31 GMT
Another couple of suggestions, regarding Dangerous Byron from Managra.
He fought extremely well, being able to defeat numerous Switzia Guardians simultaneously so perhaps Fighting 4 with an AoE for the sabre.
He carried a sabre, not a rapier, and used a dagger as a main gauche. And given that the blade could cleave Mooks' heads from their shoulders easily, it may have had an enhanced edge, perhaps STR+4 damage. Though Byron disdains the monomolecular blade used by Mary Shelly or the variable swords of the Switzia Guardians.
Later he made use of an 'auto-knot rope' to assist in his athletic swordplay; it could knot (and presumably unknot) itself and become rigid. Rather like Smart Rope in GURPS.
The 'Aerial Scooter' is properly called a Draco being styled as a dragon. It used solar energy, collected by it's outspread wings, to recharge. He, and the Doctor and Sarah Jane, also made use of mechanical horses capable of sustained speed of 80km/hr and needed occasional oilings. Luckily Europa was supplied with oil-wells.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Post by misterharry on Aug 6, 2015 11:54:34 GMT
Another couple of suggestions, regarding Dangerous Byron from Managra.
He fought extremely well, being able to defeat numerous Switzia Guardians simultaneously so perhaps Fighting 4 with an AoE for the sabre.
He carried a sabre, not a rapier, and used a dagger as a main gauche. And given that the blade could cleave Mooks' heads from their shoulders easily, it may have had an enhanced edge, perhaps STR+4 damage. Though Byron disdains the monomolecular blade used by Mary Shelly or the variable swords of the Switzia Guardians.
Later he made use of an 'auto-knot rope' to assist in his athletic swordplay; it could knot (and presumably unknot) itself and become rigid. Rather like Smart Rope in GURPS.
The 'Aerial Scooter' is properly called a Draco being styled as a dragon. It used solar energy, collected by it's outspread wings, to recharge. He, and the Doctor and Sarah Jane, also made use of mechanical horses capable of sustained speed of 80km/hr and needed occasional oilings. Luckily Europa was supplied with oil-wells.
The rapier is my mistake - I must have mixed up Byron's and Casanova's preferred weapons. And the AoE would be appropriate. Not sure about Str +4 damage for the sabre. I's a subjective thing really - does his blade routinely do Str +4, or did he get a Fantastic result for 9 damage? I don't think Byron carries autoknot rope about with him, does he? In the fight scene in which he uses it, he clearly just finds it lying on the floor. I just referred to the Draco as an Aerial Scooter in the stats so people who haven't read the book will know what it is. A compromise would be to call it a Draco Aerial Scooter. And finally, the mechanical horses - I would have included stats for them in the Europa entry, but when writing it's always a struggle to keep the word count down so that there will be enough room for a picture on the page. |
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Catsmate
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Post by Catsmate on Aug 6, 2015 12:04:24 GMT
Fair enough.
The rope he acquires in the fight with Albé at the Villa Diodati but he appears to keep it as he has it in the fight in the Domain Purgatorial at the Vatican:
In that fight his sword does seem to be unusually sharp:
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Post by misterharry on Aug 6, 2015 12:51:38 GMT
I'll gracefully concede the point about Byron's sabre doing Strength +4 damage. In any case, it allows us to differentiate from his dagger, which should do Strength +2. With regard to the rope, I'm still not convinced. It's not something Byron carries as a matter of routine. He picked it up during the course of the adventure and used it later in that adventure. I don't have a huge objection to it being added to his equipment list, but it feels more like a weapon of opportunity to me. But if the decision is to add it, I'd suggest: Autoknot Rope: Augment (Major: +3 Coordination for climbing, swinging, etc) |
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Post by Siskoid on Aug 7, 2015 18:06:06 GMT
New update. Addresses the above issues and includes material for The Drosten's Curse.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Post by misterharry on Aug 10, 2015 14:24:45 GMT
Time to claim a few more stories to cover - I'll go for:
Empathy Games - Location: Synchronis (with a sidebar on the Empathy Games)
The King of Sontar - Strang, Location: Dowcra
White Ghosts - White Ghosts
The Fate of Krelos/Return to Telos - the second half of this story isn't out yet (it's due this month), so I don't know for sure what I'll cover - possibly entries for Location: Krelos and Peter Haydon
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Post by jezmiller on Aug 11, 2015 10:32:09 GMT
Time to claim a few more stories to cover - I'll go for: Empathy Games - Location: Synchronis (with a sidebar on the Empathy Games) The King of Sontar - Strang, Location: Dowcra White Ghosts - White Ghosts The Fate of Krelos/Return to Telos - the second half of this story isn't out yet (it's due this month), so I don't know for sure what I'll cover - possibly entries for Location: Krelos and Peter Haydon Return to Telos is out today! |
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,315
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Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Aug 14, 2015 8:53:34 GMT
The Fate of Krelos/Return to Telos - the second half of this story isn't out yet (it's due this month), so I don't know for sure what I'll cover - possibly entries for Location: Krelos and Peter Haydon Well, Return to Telos is a bust so far as Peter Haydon goes - he's barely in it, just a handful of lines. Instead, I'll write an entry for Geralk (and his robot), who appear in both The Fate of Krelos and Return to Telos. This does mean that there's nothing specific to Return to Telos for the sourcebook (or The Fate of Krelos, for that matter). But as this is essentially a single story released in two parts, I hope that doesn't matter. |
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
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Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Aug 21, 2015 9:00:54 GMT
And the next few stories I'll deal with are:-
The Crooked Man - Crooked Man
The Evil One - The Salonu
Last of the Colophon - Astaroth Morax, Location: Colophos (not yet sure whether Nurse Torvik will be included in the Colophos entry or have her own write-up)
Destroy the Infinite - Location: Delafoss (probably including details of the Infinite)
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