TARDIS alternatives.

[Catsmate]

I was thinking recently about the conventional Who paradigm (the Doctor, companions and the TARDIS) and alternatives to this that might be better suited to some players. For example a less capable Time Lord, maybe a younger Gallifreyan in her first incarnation and barely a century old.
There's less of a gulf in capabilities between her and her companions.
Likewise why give the PCs a standard TARDIS? Why not something a little different, and less capable.

Some suggestions from the recesses of my imagination:
1. A damaged TARDIS
And not just First Doctor levels, I'm suggesting one that's lost most of it's functions and structure. Perhaps just a large console room and the essential systems, prone to malfunction. No bedrooms, pool, infirmary, laboratory, workshop or similar.


2. An improvised TARDIS
Imagine a group of Gallifreyan field researchers just prior to the Time War whose TARDIS was severely damaged by something, a Dalek weapon sounds good. Most either flee (in an escape pod?) and are killed or survive. But a couple of youngish Time Lords (graduate students) crash in remains of a late-model TARDIS (let's say early seventies San Francisco). Their distress signal brings no-one, they're assumed killed, so they decide to build a crude TARDIS. The console has been shown to be capable of travel on it's own so they salvage it and some other parts and build something in a shed or garage. Finally they launch their contraption and discover Gallifrey is gone and the Time War is over.

• Perhaps they take the house with them, folded spatially inside the shell of their machine. Are their others inside? (instant PC group). Is there a back door that's still connected to a lane in seventies San Francisco? Is it locked?
  

Such time machines would be less functional and more breakdown prone than most standard TARDISs, leading to more complications.

• There's refuelling such machine for a start. Perhaps there's a time-rift in San Francisco as well as Cardiff.
  

3. The DARDIS
The dimensionally transcendental time machine used by the Daleks isn't officially a 'DARDIS' but I like the name. Did the machine that brought Ian and Barbara back to 1965 actually self-destruct? Or is it lying buried in London waiting for someone with knowledge and a need to salvage it.

It was smaller than the TARDIS, though, containing two main levels. The
instrumentation was all on the ground level, close to the main doorway.
Two small laboratories led off from the main control room. Between them,
there was an elevator to the upper deck. This housed the taranium power
core from which the ship’s systems fed. Three Daleks were on permanent
duty here, monitoring the highly unstable power levels. Taranium was
both the rarest and most unstable element in the Universe. One gram of
it could power the time ship for centuries—and it had taken the Daleks
two decades to assemble such a large amount of taranium.

Such a machine would need some work for human (or Gallifreyan) use; proper life support (would you use a Dalek Digestive Residue Purging Chamber?), controls and other bits. Perhaps a trip to the star-faring future for a refit, purchase a small star ship and cannabilise it for systems.
Is it armed? It was a Dalek machine after all. Then there's the Reproduction Machine, that could be useful.
Of course it needs Taranium for fuel. What is Taranium anyway? An exotic transuranic element, perhaps folded into multiple dimensions by the stress of it's formation in hypernovs?


4. A SIDRAT
The crude TARDIS copies made by the War Lords are mentioned in the Second Doctor Sourcebook, they also appear in the old FASA scenario The Legions of Death and the extended universe novel Timewyrn: Exodus.
They're less capable, centrally contolled machines with a limited lifespan. But perhaps a suitable engineer could change that.
Were all the War Lord SIDRATS found? One (or more) might have been off on a mission and lost in the ending of the War Lord plot, perhaps visiting Earth to pick up troops. With a couple of technicians (and maybe a few security guards) on board they may have been able to land it. Perhaps it materialises on a battlefield centuries late, with human cannon fodder still in stasis.


5. An Escape Pod.
The extended universe novels Iceberg, Birthright, and Sanctuary featured the Jade Pagoda a sort of 'escape pod' carried on the Doctor's TARDIS. Presumably this was a standard fitting on TARDISs, a short-ranged emergency craft pf limited capablity. But still capable of time and space travel.


6. A time-ship.
Well Jack Harkness had a small Chula ship (did that bomb really destroy it? Or is it sill hovering over London waiting?) that was capable of time travel. Such as ship might be an ideal base and transport for a group of PCs lacking a conventional TARDIS and Time Lord. It's stealthy, capable but not overpowering. You can't land it inside a building (well maybe an airship hanger).
There's at least one fanfic where Jenny (the Doctor's daughter) obtains one.
One of my own recurring characters, Gandalf, has a similar ship (though I 'borrowed' the plans of a SG Gateship).
Don't forget to deal with the language problem, no TARDIS telepathic translation field here.

[da professor]

Possibly an RV with a modified Vortex Manipulator wired into the dash?

[Catsmate]

Or a double decker London bus. One that can fly......

[Catsmate]

Further ramblings............

OK, to extend this overview of options there are basically three kinds of time travel.

1. Psionic/psychic.
Sending only the mind/soul/psyche through time, with the body remaining at home. The Great Race of Yith used this (they've a write up on this board and could easily fuel a campaign on their own), but it's not a common option in the canon Whoniverse. In fact offhand I think of anyone who used it (please correct me if I've missed someone). Moderately common in other SF, Downtiming the Night Side for example.


2. Fixed projectors.
Ah, The Time Tunnel. These are usually large devices that move things though time without themselves moving. They split roughly into two types:

• The Stage: people stand on a device, controls are fiddled with, special effects effectuate and they're in the past. The Star Trek transporter is the classic model for this concept (with or without time/dimension travel), but it's a common enough trope. Who doesn't use this much though TOMITT and the TimeScoop are variations and it appeared in City of Death. Popular in fiction: TimeCop, 12 Monkeys, To Say Nothing of the Dog, and Terminator all use variations. The Arbatov-Brill-Eden Transmitter is another example, requiring a device (implanted or carried) to hold a person in the past. Some forms use a stage and a vehicle of some sort.
  
• The Gate: people walk though something a glowing portal, a mirror effect, an archway and they're somewhen else. Stargate is the classic example of this, time travel optional. Primeval also uses this. Dalek Time Corridors seem to be of this type (and presumably Maxtable's experiments), it also appeared in The Girl In The Fireplace. The 'temports' used by the Timekeepers (in TimeRiders) are another example, with numerous variations having different capabilities; most are closed connection, requiring a temport at each end.
  

Projectors generally have three characteristics:
1. They're usually bulky, requiring stuff, and staff, to operate. Or, if natural effects, they only happen at one location and perhaps at certain times.
2. They don't move through time.
3. They're one-way, requiring the effect to be activated again to get home.

For a campaign with the classic Who feel these methods aren't great, though they have their advantages when it comes to stranding PCs.


3. Conveyors.
This is the classic time travel trope, a device that moves though time along with it's users. Again, most examples fit into two sub-categories.

• Devices: these are something that is carried or worn that moves you through time. It could be a mysterious pocket-watch, a 'warp disc', a time belt, an oddly dense icosahedron, a sentient Brussels sprout named Barry, or pretty much anything really. It might be implanted in the body or even be a natural ability. Used occasionally in the Whoniverse, the Time Ring and a vortex manipulator being the main examples. The remote used in Sliders is a variation that generates a sustained time portal. They may be mounted in a vehicle to give it time travel capability, a truck or SUV (commonly used in TimeLords) or perhaps that double decker bus or even an A7V tank. The 'Holmes Field' also used in TimeRiders is of this type, small pocket devices to time travelling airships.
  
• Vehicles: and finally we get to the oldest (perhaps) mode of time travel, including the TARDIS and fellow craft. They may be of any size, from mighty starships to motorcycles (as used by Ace and Dr. B. B. Miller). In fact 'chronocycles' seem popular, maybe it's the convenient size, they are the main model used by Poul Anderson's Time Patrol and also appear in TimeMaster. The vehicle may be capable of movement other than de/materialisation (flight is popular) or not. Other than the TARDIS and similar craft (SIDRAT, Jade Pagoda, DARDIS) the Whoniverse has time travellling Dalek cruisers, the Kartz-Reimer module,  Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart's prototype timeship, Magnus Greel's Time Cabinet and Jack Harkness's Chula ship.
  

Hopefully these ramblings may be of use to someone.

[Stormcrow]

Rename the third type "conveyors."

There's a Big Finish audio in which a Doctor-impostor with limited knowledge of the Doctor has a STARDIS: it's a portable toilet that makes a flushing sound when it disappears (uses its transmat).

[misterharry]

Apr 10, 2014 13:49:40 GMT Stormcrow said:

Rename the third type "conveyors."

There's a Big Finish audio in which a Doctor-impostor with limited knowledge of the Doctor has a STARDIS: it's a portable toilet that makes a flushing sound when it disappears (uses its transmat).

Ahh, The One Doctor - one of my favourite Big Finish stories! Though if I recall correctly, Banto Zame's STARDIS is actually just a short-range teleport capsule to get him back to his spaceship, not a time machine.

[Catsmate]

Apr 10, 2014 13:49:40 GMT Stormcrow said:

Rename the third type "conveyors."

There's a Big Finish audio in which a Doctor-impostor with limited knowledge of the Doctor has a STARDIS: it's a portable toilet that makes a flushing sound when it disappears (uses its transmat).

Damn, I should have thought of 'conveyor', I play enough GURPS Infinite Worlds.

Apr 10, 2014 15:22:15 GMT misterharry said:

Apr 10, 2014 13:49:40 GMT Stormcrow said:

Rename the third type "conveyors."

There's a Big Finish audio in which a Doctor-impostor with limited knowledge of the Doctor has a STARDIS: it's a portable toilet that makes a flushing sound when it disappears (uses its transmat).

Ahh, The One Doctor - one of my favourite Big Finish stories! Though if I recall correctly, Banto Zame's STARDIS is actually just a short-range teleport capsule to get him back to his spaceship, not a time machine.

And it's not bigger on the inside either, rather cramped for four.

[Polar Bear]

These "ramblings" have solved rather a major problem for me; thanks. My Chula ship is going to have a Babel fish tank installed to solve that other problem you mentioned.

[Stormcrow]

Apr 10, 2014 15:31:21 GMT Catsmate said:

Damn, I should have thought of 'conveyor', I play enough GURPS Infinite Worlds.

That's what I was thinking of. Your use of projector reminded me of it.

Apr 10, 2014 15:22:15 GMT misterharry said:

Ahh, The One Doctor - one of my favourite Big Finish stories!

The Shelves of Infinity!

[smichael68]

Apr 10, 2014 11:46:42 GMT Catsmate said:

Further ramblings............

1. Psionic/psychic.
Sending only the mind/soul/psyche through time, with the body remaining at home. The Great Race of Yith used this (they've a write up on this board and could easily fuel a campaign on their own), but it's not a common option in the canon Whoniverse. In fact offhand I think of anyone who used it (please correct me if I've missed someone). Moderately common in other SF, Downtiming the Night Side for example.

[/div][/quote]
Wouldn't the dream "conference call" in "The Name of the Doctor" qualify as this type of time travel? "Time travel has always been possible in dreams." - Madame Vastra

[Catsmate]

Apr 11, 2014 13:16:15 GMT smichael68 said:

Apr 10, 2014 11:46:42 GMT Catsmate said:

Further ramblings............

1. Psionic/psychic.
Sending only the mind/soul/psyche through time, with the body remaining at home. The Great Race of Yith used this (they've a write up on this board and could easily fuel a campaign on their own), but it's not a common option in the canon Whoniverse. In fact offhand I think of anyone who used it (please correct me if I've missed someone). Moderately common in other SF, Downtiming the Night Side for example.

[/div][/quote]
Wouldn't the dream "conference call" in "The Name of the Doctor" qualify as this type of time travel? "Time travel has always been possible in dreams." - Madame Vastra[/quote]
That's a a good point, and one with gaming possibilities. People contacting others, transferring information, would have some potential for screwing up history. So who gets to fix it?

[Polar Bear]

Please see the sister thread for the first draft of the Chula Ship I designed.

[Catsmate]

Apr 12, 2014 15:11:36 GMT Polar Bear said:

Please see the sister thread for the first draft of the Chula Ship I designed.

I like it.
Would it really hold six? Though we didn't get much impression of its size it *seemed* smaller. Anyway that's juts background, it should hold a party but encourage cabin fever so they want to go outside and get into trouble.

Three points:
1. Weapons - it's described as a "warship" but we don't see them in action. I like your description, they should (I feel) be enough to reliably kill, say, a Dalek but not endanger a real warship.
2. Repairs - if it has healing nano-tech shouldn't it have something similar form itself? Though maybe this doesn't work well, or at all, on the party's vessel.
3. Refueling - I think this has potential for causing a few adventures in itself.....
"What do you mean we have to hover over Alcatraz to absorb energy from the San Francisco temporal rift!?".

[Polar Bear]

Thanks for the kind words. Good comments overall.

0) No, the original ship from The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances wouldn't hold six. I'm not using Cpt. Jack's ship, though, but a bigger one from the same race--like the Romulans made warbirds that looked almost exactly the same except for the sizes. I made it the size I'll need for the party of five PCs I'll have, leaving room for one NPC, hoping desperately I didn't write myself into a corner by leaving so little wiggle room! (Yes, Cpt., Jack said it was "the last one," but what does that even mean when we're in a time travel show? And isn't the whole point that he's a con man??)

1) Weapons - Thanks much; that's about the power level I was aiming for, so I'm grateful for the feedback. Just enough to get them out of a single tight squeeze, but not enough for them to take on a Sontaran Battle Cruiser or an Imperial Star Destroyer or anything.

2) I kept the nano-tech for the medlab (although I powered it waaaay down, out of what I felt to be RPG necessity), but I felt that the ship would become too TARDIS-like if it just healed itself. I want damage to cost something, and the only thing I've got is dice and time, even if that time is imaginary. I decided that with 20 points of armour, 30 points should be enough for them to avoid getting destroyed, at least.

3) I'm open to suggestions. Refueling was the last thing that occurred to me, and I'd pretty much run the creative well dry at that point in the day, and I really wanted to post something in compet...I mean, uh, in response to the Dalek ship.  

[Catsmate]

Apr 12, 2014 19:07:05 GMT Polar Bear said:

Thanks for the kind words. Good comments overall.

0) No, the original ship from The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances wouldn't hold six. I'm not using Cpt. Jack's ship, though, but a bigger one from the same race--like the Romulans made warbirds that looked almost exactly the same except for the sizes. I made it the size I'll need for the party of five PCs I'll have, leaving room for one NPC, hoping desperately I didn't write myself into a corner by leaving so little wiggle room! (Yes, Cpt., Jack said it was "the last one," but what does that even mean when we're in a time travel show? And isn't the whole point that he's a con man??)

Yep this works for me. Plus the ship should be sufficiently small to hide, either by technobabble invisibility or just hiding it.

Apr 12, 2014 19:07:05 GMT Polar Bear said:

1) Weapons - Thanks much; that's about the power level I was aiming for, so I'm grateful for the feedback. Just enough to get them out of a single tight squeeze, but not enough for them to take on a Sontaran Battle Cruiser or an Imperial Star Destroyer or anything.

Also agreed, more of plot device but DWAITAS isn't as "crunchy" as other RPGs, it's about the story

Apr 12, 2014 19:07:05 GMT Polar Bear said:

2) I kept the nano-tech for the medlab (although I powered it waaaay down, out of what I felt to be RPG necessity), but I felt that the ship would become too TARDIS-like if it just healed itself. I want damage to cost something, and the only thing I've got is dice and time, even if that time is imaginary. I decided that with 20 points of armour, 30 points should be enough for them to avoid getting destroyed, at least.

Give the players some protection, but not let them get too blase about threats.

As for the nanotech I'd use it to solve the language problem (no TARDIS to translate), again more of a plot device.

"Swallow this capsule" handing companion something more suited to a horse.
"Huh?"
"It'll let you understand languages in other times"
"Oh, okay. Gulp. How does it work?"
"It grows a computer implant in you brain, connected to you optic nerves, speech centre and so on. We update it from the ship's computer"
"Eeeek, in my brain???"
"Exactly. Oh that reminds me" Hand player a pillbox. "Take one of these every three hours for the next few days. They provide the minerals for the process. We wouldn't want the nanites cannabilising your nervous system, now would we?"

Apr 12, 2014 19:07:05 GMT Polar Bear said:

3) I'm open to suggestions. Refueling was the last thing that occurred to me, and I'd pretty much run the creative well dry at that point in the day, and I really wanted to post something in compet...I mean, uh, in response to the Dalek ship.  

I'd make refueling an occasional matter, perhaps the source of an adventure in itself. Maybe every-so-often the ship needs to be parked in a Time Rift or whatever.
Or have the players search for Taranium, eking out their limited supply.

[Catsmate]

A quick question. I don't have Talons of Weng Chiang to hand and the book isn't clear, was Greel's Time Cabinet bigger inside than outside? I don't *think* so but I'm not sure.

[misterharry]

Apr 16, 2014 17:56:19 GMT Catsmate said:

A quick question. I don't have Talons of Weng Chiang to hand and the book isn't clear, was Greel's Time Cabinet bigger inside than outside? I don't *think* so but I'm not sure.

No, it seemed barely large enough for Magnus Greel standing inside, though of course Mr Sin travelled with him back from the 51st Century.

[Catsmate]

Ah thanks, I thought that was so.

[Polar Bear]

Apr 16, 2014 17:54:26 GMT Catsmate said:

As for the nanotech I'd use it to solve the language problem (no TARDIS to translate), again more of a plot device.

"Swallow this capsule" handing companion something more suited to a horse.
"Huh?"
"It'll let you understand languages in other times"
"Oh, okay. Gulp. How does it work?"
"It grows a computer implant in you brain, connected to you optic nerves, speech centre and so on. We update it from the ship's computer"
"Eeeek, in my brain???"
"Exactly. Oh that reminds me" Hand player a pillbox. "Take one of these every three hours for the next few days. They provide the minerals for the process. We wouldn't want the nanites cannabilising your nervous system, now would we?"

Apr 12, 2014 19:07:05 GMT Polar Bear said:

3) I'm open to suggestions. Refueling was the last thing that occurred to me, and I'd pretty much run the creative well dry at that point in the day, and I really wanted to post something in compet...I mean, uh, in response to the Dalek ship.  

I'd make refueling an occasional matter, perhaps the source of an adventure in itself. Maybe every-so-often the ship needs to be parked in a Time Rift or whatever.
Or have the players search for Taranium, eking out their limited supply.

The nanogene for language is a much more elegant solution; thanks.  I'll look into the refueling suggestion as well; I may just do that for a single adventure in a campaign or something--I don't want it to get repetitive, but it could well be fun once. 

Thanks much for the thoughts!

Now, I just need to remember to visit rpg.com every so often to see if they have another sale, since I actually do want to pick up Rocket Age.

[Polar Bear]

Okay, I've bought and perused Rocket Age. Neat stuff. I like what I've seen.

What I'm most confused about is how the kph for ground speed/air speed/space speed translate into the "Action Round Speed." What's that--is it just what DWAiTaS has been calling "Speed" this whole time?  Also, has anyone been able to figure out the mathematics for all of this?  I'm an English teacher, and numbers have never been my special friends.

And what's their difference between "Structure" and "Armor"?  And they don't have a place for "Shields"--if I wanted it to have shields, would I just use the DWAiTaS ""Forcefield" Gadget Trait and assign that single trait gadget points?

[misterharry]

Apr 19, 2014 21:55:13 GMT Polar Bear said:

Okay, I've bought and perused Rocket Age. Neat stuff. I like what I've seen.

What I'm most confused about is how the kph for ground speed/air speed/space speed translate into the "Action Round Speed." What's that--is it just what DWAiTaS has been calling "Speed" this whole time?  Also, has anyone been able to figure out the mathematics for all of this?  I'm an English teacher, and numbers have never been my special friends.

My understanding, for what it's worth. Yes, Action Round Speed in Rocket Age equates to Speed in DWAITAS - it's how far a vehicle will travel in 1 Action Round (though I don't think this is explained anywhere in the rules). Ground Speed and Air Speed (in kph) seems to be a simple calculation of Action Round Speed x 0.6.

It's worth noting though that vehicle speed in DWAITAS isn't comparable to vehicle speed in Rocket Age. To take an example, in Defending the Earth (page 42), a tank's Speed is given as 4; whereas in Rocket Age (page 183), a light tank has an Action Round Speed of 93, and a heavy tank has 63. Similarly, in DtE (page 43), a truck is given a Speed of 6, but in RA (page 183 again), a cargo truck has an Action Round Speed of 120. I think the lesson is to use one system or the other in your game, as trying to use vehicle stats from both rules will be confusing.

And what's their difference between "Structure" and "Armor"?

Vehicle Structure is described on page 227 of the Rocket Age rules - its the amount of damage a vehicle can take, so the equivalent of DWAITAS's Hit Capacity. Armour is the same as in DWAITAS (described in RA on page 189).

 And they don't have a place for "Shields"--if I wanted it to have shields, would I just use the DWAiTaS ""Forcefield" Gadget Trait and assign that single trait gadget points?

Vehicles have traits the same as any other equipment, so yes you could buy Forcefield for this purpose. There isn't an equivalent trait in Rocket Age (the nearest thing is RAY Shielding - have a look at the section on Equipment Traits from 200 onwards in RA), but I don't see any problem in using DWAITAS traits.

In Rocket Age, equipment traits (the equivalent of gadget traits) don't have costs. So if you're building vehicles under RA rules, I wouldn't worry about the cost of traits. In any case, all the spaceships in RA have a cost of P - Priceless, meaning they can't be purchased by players, but must be found, received as a reward or stolen.

[Polar Bear]

Happy Easter to you and yours!

Thanks so much for the hasty help.  It's much appreciated.

Apr 20, 2014 10:28:29 GMT misterharry said:

It's worth noting though that vehicle speed in DWAITAS isn't comparable to vehicle speed in Rocket Age. To take an example, in Defending the Earth (page 42), a tank's Speed is given as 4; whereas in Rocket Age (page 183), a light tank has an Action Round Speed of 93, and a heavy tank has 63. Similarly, in DtE (page 43), a truck is given a Speed of 6, but in RA (page 183 again), a cargo truck has an Action Round Speed of 120. I think the lesson is to use one system or the other in your game, as trying to use vehicle stats from both rules will be confusing.

Ooh...  That makes things extremely, extremely tricky.  Hideous, in fact.

I'm assuming that for a human, Speed = Coordination in Rocket Age.  In that case, a speed of 120 really makes no sense.  Usain Bolt, the world's fastest human, holds the record at 23 mph, so let's assume that's a speed of 7 (6 + Run for Your Life bonus).  An "Action Round Speed" of 120 would mean a truck (in 1935!) would be traveling 17x faster than Usain Bolt, or 394 mph!  That's plainly ridiculous.

That said, I've always felt the DWAiTaS vehicle speeds (and animal speeds, to be honest) were too conservative.

Is there any way to fix this mess, or are we just stuck?

[misterharry]

Apr 20, 2014 12:00:57 GMT Polar Bear said:

Happy Easter to you and yours!

And a Happy Easter to you too! Mmm, chocolate...

Thanks so much for the hasty help.  It's much appreciated.

Apr 20, 2014 10:28:29 GMT misterharry said:

It's worth noting though that vehicle speed in DWAITAS isn't comparable to vehicle speed in Rocket Age. To take an example, in Defending the Earth (page 42), a tank's Speed is given as 4; whereas in Rocket Age (page 183), a light tank has an Action Round Speed of 93, and a heavy tank has 63. Similarly, in DtE (page 43), a truck is given a Speed of 6, but in RA (page 183 again), a cargo truck has an Action Round Speed of 120. I think the lesson is to use one system or the other in your game, as trying to use vehicle stats from both rules will be confusing.

Ooh...  That makes things extremely, extremely tricky.  Hideous, in fact.

I'm assuming that for a human, Speed = Coordination in Rocket Age.  In that case, a speed of 120 really makes no sense.  Usain Bolt, the world's fastest human, holds the record at 23 mph, so let's assume that's a speed of 7 (6 + Run for Your Life bonus).  An "Action Round Speed" of 120 would mean a truck (in 1935!) would be traveling 17x faster than Usain Bolt, or 394 mph!  That's plainly ridiculous.

Looking at it the other way around... If kph speed is 0.6 of Action Round Speed (I'm gonna shorten this to ARS from now on!), then the truck with ARS 120 would have a max speed of 72kph, or approx. 45mph - probably about right for 1935. But using the same conversion, Usain Bolt would run at 7 x 0.6 = about 4kph, less than 3mph - which is again ridiculous.

That said, I've always felt the DWAiTaS vehicle speeds (and animal speeds, to be honest) were too conservative.

Is there any way to fix this mess, or are we just stuck?

I think the solution is not to compare character (and animal) speeds with those of vehicles - they're clearly not the same measure. So in vehicle chases, the comparison is between ARS numbers; for characters, its the comparison of their Speeds (ie their Coordination in most cases). The only problem is if you've got somebody on foot trying to chase a car, for example - but then, even Usain Bolt is going to have a hard time trying to keep up with a speeding motor!

Alternatively, if you want a stat that applies to both characters and vehicles, divide the Rocket Age ARS number by 8. I think that should be roughly correct. For the same truck, that would give it an ARS of 15 - still a lot higher than using the DWAITAS stats for it, but Usain Bolt with Speed 7 being able to run at 23mph equates (roughly) to the truck with Speed 15 being able to reach 45mph.

[Polar Bear]

Your answers are very useful.

If ARS x .6 = kph, then ARS = mph (approx.).

I think it does matter, in a way--for example, if a character has coordination 5 or 6 and the Alien Trait "Fast," they're going to be pretty close to running as fast as a truck.  The recently posted Six Million Dollar Man/Bionic Woman are good examples, but certainly the upgraded Cybermen from the Neil Gaiman episode could move at that speed, if not more.  Also, in real life, a cheetah or a T-rex (from what we can tell of its bone structure) could both run at highway speeds.  I can definitely see a game situation where a T-Rex could be pursuing a jeep, for example, or a cheetah chasing down a guy on a damaged motorcycle. Mostly, it's not so much for the sake of PCs, I guess, but for NPCs, so we do need to be able to have x and y compare reasonably well.

Does Primeval use vehicles at all, and if so, do its numbers fall on the DWAiTaS or the Rocket Age side of things? (Or does it add to the confusion?)

This is, by the way, going somewhere eventually. I'm trying to create a universal Vortex system "Vehicle Sheet" (like a character sheet) that we can all use for vehicles. It's mostly designed, and my genius son has agreed to use InDesign/Photoshop to set it up so I can post it here, and hopefully on Diary, too.  I'm aiming for something universal enough that it could be used for anything, including:

*the Batmobile (for use in Pulp Fantastic);

*Bessie;

*a Tie Fighter;

*the Starship Enterprise; and

*Ace's time-cycle.

If it can handle all of those, I figure we've got it made.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, here's what I'm planning on for the "Speed" section of the Vehicle Sheet:

____ kph ground/air speed
                                x 1.67 = _____ mph
____ kph in vacuum [air speed x (6 + 3d6)]
                                x 1.67 = _____ mph
(Rocket Age Action Round Speed = mph)
____ DWAiTaS Speed = mph/8
____ DWAiTiS Speed in a vacuum

Criticize at will.

[Catsmate]

Primeval uses pretty much the same vehicle format as DWAITAS with a few vehicle specific traits (Open/Enclosed/Fully Enclosed, Off Road, Powerful and Fast). For example the motorcycle from DWAITS is Armour 0, Hit Capacity 6 and Speed 8 while in Primeval it's Armour 2, Hit Capacity 6, Speed 8 and has the Open trait, with a particularly powerful bike also having Fast. There are a few more examples and they almost match up.

Vehicle	DW Armour	DW HC	DW Speed	Pri. Armour	Pri. HC	Pri. Speed	Traits (Primeval)
UNIT Jeep	6	14	8	-	-	-
Primeval 4x4	-	-	-	6	16	6	Enclosed, Off Road, Powerful, Huge
Tank	15	21	4	18	32	3	Fully Enclosed, Powerful x8
Large Helo	15	15	9	6	15	12	Enclosed

A couple of things strike me; the UNIT helicopter shouldn't be as armoured as a MBT, in fact Primeval has an entry for armoured attack helos with Armour 15. And even that's grossly unrealistic, even a Hind wasn't a 'flying tank'.
Also the UNIT helo is slow, the Primeval speed of 12 seems far more logical (and would match the 'light aircraft' entry in the UNIT sourcebook.
The Primeval tank should have the Off Road trait.


Hope this helps.

[Polar Bear]

Incredibly useful. Thank you, Catsmate.

My son's started working on the Vehicle Sheet, so it should be a matter of days instead of weeks.

[Catsmate]

Good luck with it, let me know if I can assist. I'll be travelling again next week (alas not by TARDIS) so I'll have time on my hands.

[misterharry]

Apr 20, 2014 15:11:30 GMT Polar Bear said:

If ARS x .6 = kph, then ARS = mph (approx.).

I'm afraid not. You've got the conversion the wrong way around - mph should be lower than its equivalent in kph. I use 5/8 and 8/5 for the conversions - it's still an approximation, but a little closer than 0.6: mph = 5/8 x kph; or kph = 8/5 x mph.

So unfortunately, ARS doesn't equal mph.

Okay, here's what I'm planning on for the "Speed" section of the Vehicle Sheet:

____ kph ground/air speed
                                x 1.67 = _____ mph
____ kph in vacuum [air speed x (6 + 3d6)]
                                x 1.67 = _____ mph
(Rocket Age Action Round Speed = mph)
____ DWAiTaS Speed = mph/8
____ DWAiTiS Speed in a vacuum

A corrected version should be:

____ kph ground/air speed x 5/8 = _____ mph
____ kph in vacuum [air speed x (6 + 3d6)] x 5/8 = _____ mph
(Rocket Age Action Round Speed = mph)
____ DWAiTaS Speed = ARS/8
____ DWAiTiS Speed in a vacuum

I've also reverted to DWAITAS Speed being Rocket Age ARS divided by 8.

And just a personal preference, but I don't think I'd make speed in vacuum to be a calculation from speed in air. Personally I'd keep it as totally independent, as you could have ships which use completely different drives for use in atmosphere or in space. Just my view though.

[Catsmate]

Comparison of vehicular and heavy weapons between DWAITAS and Primeval.

Weapon	DW Damage	DW Range	Pri. Damage	Pri. Range	Notes
Light MG	3/7/10	50/100/300			Minimi/LSW type
Medium MG	4/8/12	50/100/300		800m	extrapolated from sniper rifle; GPMG or similar
Heavy MG	6/9/15	50/100/300			.50, listed under vehicles
Hand grenade	8/16/24	STR x3	8/16/24
Rocket	9/18/27	20/40/80	20/40/60	20/40/80
Missile	12/18/27				listed under aircraft
Bomb	16/24/36				listed under aircraft
Cannon			15/30/45		Tank armament

Notes:

• Most of the DWAITAS information is from the UNIT Sourcebook.
• Only one DWAITAS range increment value is given for machine guns, practically it should be shorter for LMGs (assault rifle calibre/5.56mm) and longer for HMGs (12.7mm or similar).
  
• The Primeval MMG entry refers to it as a 'heavy machine gun' but also says it can be fired on the move so I've classed it as a medium
• Deleted, my error. Both systems actually have the same damage for grenades, though Primeval has rules for different types.
  

[Polar Bear]

Apr 21, 2014 8:38:10 GMT misterharry said:

Apr 20, 2014 15:11:30 GMT Polar Bear said:

If ARS x .6 = kph, then ARS = mph (approx.).

I'm afraid not. You've got the conversion the wrong way around - mph should be lower than its equivalent in kph. I use 5/8 and 8/5 for the conversions - it's still an approximation, but a little closer than 0.6: mph = 5/8 x kph; or kph = 8/5 x mph.

So unfortunately, ARS doesn't equal mph.

Okay, here's what I'm planning on for the "Speed" section of the Vehicle Sheet:

____ kph ground/air speed
                                x 1.67 = _____ mph
____ kph in vacuum [air speed x (6 + 3d6)]
                                x 1.67 = _____ mph
(Rocket Age Action Round Speed = mph)
____ DWAiTaS Speed = mph/8
____ DWAiTiS Speed in a vacuum

A corrected version should be:

____ kph ground/air speed x 5/8 = _____ mph
____ kph in vacuum [air speed x (6 + 3d6)] x 5/8 = _____ mph
(Rocket Age Action Round Speed = mph)
____ DWAiTaS Speed = ARS/8
____ DWAiTiS Speed in a vacuum

I've also reverted to DWAITAS Speed being Rocket Age ARS divided by 8.

And just a personal preference, but I don't think I'd make speed in vacuum to be a calculation from speed in air. Personally I'd keep it as totally independent, as you could have ships which use completely different drives for use in atmosphere or in space. Just my view though.

Rats.  I told you about me and numbers.  Thanks much.

Vacuum speed is based on the calculations I did from the sample space ships in Rocket Age.  I did math (using a calculator ) on the stats there, and the multiples ended up being between 9 and 24.  I backwards engineered that range as being equivalent to 6 + 3D6.  You can double-check me if you like, as I've been caught once on this thread already.

I think the way to handle ships with totally different drives is, as you suggested either in this or the sister thread (maybe some kind mod could merge them?), is to create a "hyperspace" or "warp" or "wormhole" Trait.