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Post by senko on Jun 18, 2024 11:50:31 GMT
Its nearly always a normal yale key in looks (with a few medallion designs for the middle doctors and the ones in the box the timelords are rummaging through to unlock the TARDIS in deadly assasin). A working model will have a lot of different locks presumably horse wagon, police call box, gingerbread house, starship, organ. Since they wont presumably all have a convenient yale lock and some key's aren't a yale key do you think the key is tied into the chameleon circuit and shifts form to match the TARDIS apperance e.g. a key card, the medallion keys, a fob (as we've seen used), a bilock key, old fashioned cylinder style.
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Post by thewarchief on Jun 18, 2024 13:03:42 GMT
Its nearly always a normal yale key in looks (with a few medallion designs for the middle doctors and the ones in the box the timelords are rummaging through to unlock the TARDIS in deadly assasin). A working model will have a lot of different locks presumably horse wagon, police call box, gingerbread house, starship, organ. Since they wont presumably all have a convenient yale lock and some key's aren't a yale key do you think the key is tied into the chameleon circuit and shifts form to match the TARDIS apperance e.g. a key card, the medallion keys, a fob (as we've seen used), a block key, old fashioned cylinder style. Good question. My initial though was, "No, the keys stay the same, it's just the Doctor updates the lock from time to time and needs new keys", but then I thought about Classic Who and if I recall correctly, originally the keyhole for the lock was hidden, and didn't appear without the key - and that sounds like the chameleon circuit. I also believe that originally the writers planned to hide the keyhole in the various forms the TARDIS was going to take in each story. And since the TARDIS regenerated in The Eleventh Hour, maybe all the TARDIS keys did too? Imagine what some old companions might have thought of that. In the 9th Doctor era, Rose's key glowed when the TARDIS materialized, and got hot during the events of Farther's Day. So there is some sort of link, and the TARDIS is telepathic. So maybe there is a link to the chameleon circuit, and maybe it gets stuck just like the TARDIS, and maybe every so often the Doctor fiddles with it and things change. The "medallion" shape TARDIS key of the 3rd and 4th Doctors did come about right when the Doctor was in exile and didn't know how to operate (or fix) the TARDIS. Maybe the medallion key was part of an attempt to get the TARDIS working again, much like his botched attempt at fixing his dematerilzation circuit. So a definite maybe. |
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Post by senko on Jun 20, 2024 10:20:15 GMT
Its nearly always a normal yale key in looks (with a few medallion designs for the middle doctors and the ones in the box the timelords are rummaging through to unlock the TARDIS in deadly assasin). A working model will have a lot of different locks presumably horse wagon, police call box, gingerbread house, starship, organ. Since they wont presumably all have a convenient yale lock and some key's aren't a yale key do you think the key is tied into the chameleon circuit and shifts form to match the TARDIS apperance e.g. a key card, the medallion keys, a fob (as we've seen used), a block key, old fashioned cylinder style. Good question. My initial though was, "No, the keys stay the same, it's just the Doctor updates the lock from time to time and needs new keys", but then I thought about Classic Who and if I recall correctly, originally the keyhole for the lock was hidden, and didn't appear without the key - and that sounds like the chameleon circuit. I also believe that originally the writers planned to hide the keyhole in the various forms the TARDIS was going to take in each story. And since the TARDIS regenerated in The Eleventh Hour, maybe all the TARDIS keys did too? Imagine what some old companions might have thought of that. In the 9th Doctor era, Rose's key glowed when the TARDIS materialized, and got hot during the events of Farther's Day. So there is some sort of link, and the TARDIS is telepathic. So maybe there is a link to the chameleon circuit, and maybe it gets stuck just like the TARDIS, and maybe every so often the Doctor fiddles with it and things change. The "medallion" shape TARDIS key of the 3rd and 4th Doctors did come about right when the Doctor was in exile and didn't know how to operate (or fix) the TARDIS. Maybe the medallion key was part of an attempt to get the TARDIS working again, much like his botched attempt at fixing his dematerilzation circuit. So a definite maybe. The third and fourth Doctor's were the ones where he did the most tinkering in classic who. First trying to get it working again then we see several upgrades and the season's use of the secondary console room so that would fit. I admit I do like the idea of the key's being linked. So they do various functions . . .
1) Shift apperance to match the disguise and lock of the main TARDIS. 2) Reveal a keyhole on forms that don't normally have one. 3) Act as a homing beacon to locate the TARDIS. Yes I know the Doctor canonically had to use something else for this but it seems a good idea given they can be stolen or fall off a cliff. 4) Summoning the TARDIS to you, possibly with the help of some other device.
EDIT
I just looked on the fandom website apparently "The key to the Doctor's TARDIS took several forms, as the key was able to change shape with the chameleon circuit. (AUDIO: The Alchemists)" I'll need to look into this audio.
Several of the ideas I like have been used in canon too which is nice.
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Post by thewarchief on Jun 20, 2024 15:41:19 GMT
More fuel for the fire:
I was watching The Sound of Drums where the Doctor puts perception filters on everybodfy's TARDIS key so they can move around unnoticed, and he states that each key is "a part of the TARDIS".
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Post by senko on Jun 24, 2024 0:34:34 GMT
More fuel for the fire: I was watching The Sound of Drums where the Doctor puts perception filters on everybodfy's TARDIS key so they can move around unnoticed, and he states that each key is "a part of the TARDIS". It does seem like while there may be a few "skeleton keys" to work on various models most TARDIS keys are a part of that TARDIS or at least linked to it far more than a regular key and lock. |
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Post by thewarchief on Jun 24, 2024 2:11:02 GMT
It does seem like while there may be a few "skeleton keys" to work on various models most TARDIS keys are a part of that TARDIS or at least linked to it far more than a regular key and lock. Well considering it's Time Lord technology, it's not surprising it the Time Lords know a way around it. Maybe TARDIS are like automobiles in that there are a limited number of "keys" used. Considering how regulated TARDIS are, the Time Lords wouldn't really need a lot of different keys anyway. That would fit with with we see in The Deadly Assassin, when the chancellery guard pull out a box of keys to try and get into the Doctor's TARDIS. It takes the guard awhile too,y because the Doctor TARDIS is an old Type 40, a retired model. It's like trying to find a key for a 1959 Ford Thunderbird. |
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Post by senko on Jun 24, 2024 2:48:08 GMT
It does seem like while there may be a few "skeleton keys" to work on various models most TARDIS keys are a part of that TARDIS or at least linked to it far more than a regular key and lock. Well considering it's Time Lord technology, it's not surprising it the Time Lords know a way around it. Maybe TARDIS are like automobiles in that there are a limited number of "keys" used. Considering how regulated TARDIS are, the Time Lords wouldn't really need a lot of different keys anyway. That would fit with with we see in The Deadly Assassin, when the chancellery guard pull out a box of keys to try and get into the Doctor's TARDIS. It takes the guard awhile too,y because the Doctor TARDIS is an old Type 40, a retired model. It's like trying to find a key for a 1959 Ford Thunderbird. That's what I was thinking about. Just debating if its . . .
1) This key opens all Type 41 locks (Binomic Tirurcate, I know I got this wrong but need to go and can't check the correct name), this key opens all type 80 locks (Octanomic Quinfacurate, made up but a reflection of increased complexity and security) being produced for the Chancellery or CIA. While each individual TARDIS also has its own personal lock and can produce keys for it. To clarify the TARDIS key is my apartment key that opens my apartment/TARDIS but not my neighbours apartment/TARDIS. The Type 41 key opens both as they are both type 41 TARDISs.
or
2) All type 41 TARDIS's use a specific key and all type 60 TARDISS use a different one. So a Type 41 key will open any Type 41 TARDIS and the chancellery keeps a few spares in case of need. To continue the above analogy my apartment key opens the building door and my neighbours apartment key opens the building door even though they are technically different keys.
I think the doctor uses his key on the monks and the master's TARDIS's but I vaguely recall getting his key being a plot point for them so I need to go back and check.
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Post by Catsmate on Jun 24, 2024 7:40:04 GMT
Good question. My initial though was, "No, the keys stay the same, it's just the Doctor updates the lock from time to time and needs new keys", but then I thought about Classic Who and if I recall correctly, originally the keyhole for the lock was hidden, and didn't appear without the key - and that sounds like the chameleon circuit. I also believe that originally the writers planned to hide the keyhole in the various forms the TARDIS was going to take in each story. And since the TARDIS regenerated in The Eleventh Hour, maybe all the TARDIS keys did too? Imagine what some old companions might have thought of that. In the 9th Doctor era, Rose's key glowed when the TARDIS materialized, and got hot during the events of Farther's Day. So there is some sort of link, and the TARDIS is telepathic. So maybe there is a link to the chameleon circuit, and maybe it gets stuck just like the TARDIS, and maybe every so often the Doctor fiddles with it and things change. The "medallion" shape TARDIS key of the 3rd and 4th Doctors did come about right when the Doctor was in exile and didn't know how to operate (or fix) the TARDIS. Maybe the medallion key was part of an attempt to get the TARDIS working again, much like his botched attempt at fixing his dematerilzation circuit. So a definite maybe. The third and fourth Doctor's were the ones where he did the most tinkering in classic who. First trying to get it working again then we see several upgrades and the season's use of the secondary console room so that would fit. I admit I do like the idea of the key's being linked. So they do various functions . . .
1) Shift apperance to match the disguise and lock of the main TARDIS. 2) Reveal a keyhole on forms that don't normally have one. 3) Act as a homing beacon to locate the TARDIS. Yes I know the Doctor canonically had to use something else for this but it seems a good idea given they can be stolen or fall off a cliff. 4) Summoning the TARDIS to you, possibly with the help of some other device.
EDIT
I just looked on the fandom website apparently "The key to the Doctor's TARDIS took several forms, as the key was able to change shape with the chameleon circuit. (AUDIO: The Alchemists)" I'll need to look into this audio.
Several of the ideas I like have been used in canon too which is nice.
1. Seems eminently reasonable to me.
2. Even more sensible.
3. I'd agree to this. Perhaps such a location feature is tricky to use, or not present on earlier models?
4. Well there are TARDIS remotes but they're different devices. Though perhaps, as a plot device, some contraption could be constructed, using a key as the link to the TARDIS, to summon the capsule? With suitable rolls, side-quest to get parts and SP spends.
I a one-off scenario I did for a different group of players during COVID we had a PC who constructed a device to communicate with the TARDIS after he's been left behind, using a key as the link.
(Basically a gender-switched version of The Chase with a Margaret Rutherford First Doctor)
I have The Alchemists but I don't remember a reference to the TARDIS key, I'll give it anther try when I have the chance.
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Post by Catsmate on Jun 24, 2024 7:42:45 GMT
More fuel for the fire: I was watching The Sound of Drums where the Doctor puts perception filters on everybodfy's TARDIS key so they can move around unnoticed, and he states that each key is "a part of the TARDIS".
This also suggests to me that a lost/found TARDIS key could perhaps be used to detect the arrival of the TARDIS and locate it. Maybe that's how the Recurring Enemy keeps finding them?
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Post by Catsmate on Jun 24, 2024 7:50:24 GMT
It does seem like while there may be a few "skeleton keys" to work on various models most TARDIS keys are a part of that TARDIS or at least linked to it far more than a regular key and lock. Well considering it's Time Lord technology, it's not surprising it the Time Lords know a way around it. Maybe TARDIS are like automobiles in that there are a limited number of "keys" used. Considering how regulated TARDIS are, the Time Lords wouldn't really need a lot of different keys anyway. That would fit with with we see in The Deadly Assassin, when the chancellery guard pull out a box of keys to try and get into the Doctor's TARDIS. It takes the guard awhile too,y because the Doctor TARDIS is an old Type 40, a retired model. It's like trying to find a key for a 1959 Ford Thunderbird.
The Daleks' Master Plan saw The Monk damage the lock of the Doctor's TARDIS and the latter open it with his ring and some technobabble.
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
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Posts: 3,859
Favourite Doctors: Thirteen, Six, Five, Two, Eight, Eleven, Twelve, One, Nine...
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Post by Catsmate on Jun 24, 2024 7:56:46 GMT
Well considering it's Time Lord technology, it's not surprising it the Time Lords know a way around it. Maybe TARDIS are like automobiles in that there are a limited number of "keys" used. Considering how regulated TARDIS are, the Time Lords wouldn't really need a lot of different keys anyway. That would fit with with we see in The Deadly Assassin, when the chancellery guard pull out a box of keys to try and get into the Doctor's TARDIS. It takes the guard awhile too,y because the Doctor TARDIS is an old Type 40, a retired model. It's like trying to find a key for a 1959 Ford Thunderbird. That's what I was thinking about. Just debating if its . . .
1) This key opens all Type 41 locks (Binomic Tirurcate, I know I got this wrong but need to go and can't check the correct name), this key opens all type 80 locks (Octanomic Quinfacurate, made up but a reflection of increased complexity and security) being produced for the Chancellery or CIA. While each individual TARDIS also has its own personal lock and can produce keys for it. To clarify the TARDIS key is my apartment key that opens my apartment/TARDIS but not my neighbours apartment/TARDIS. The Type 41 key opens both as they are both type 41 TARDISs.
or
2) All type 41 TARDIS's use a specific key and all type 60 TARDISS use a different one. So a Type 41 key will open any Type 41 TARDIS and the chancellery keeps a few spares in case of need. To continue the above analogy my apartment key opens the building door and my neighbours apartment key opens the building door even though they are technically different keys.
I think the doctor uses his key on the monks and the master's TARDIS's but I vaguely recall getting his key being a plot point for them so I need to go back and check.
In Colony in Space the Doctor uses a key for the Master's TARDIS that he stole earlier to gain access. Of course the Master has additional security.
Presumably a Time Lord could modify or replace the lock on a TARDIS and manufacture additional keys, perhaps requiring some effort.
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Post by thewarchief on Jun 24, 2024 12:39:43 GMT
Well back in the '60's most cars used one of a small number of keys from that manufacturer, you could drop into (say) a Ford dealer and show them 'key Y' and get a spare on the spot. That's still mostly true today. It's something along the lines of 5000 different locks, one each for the door and for the ignition (although some cars use one key for both). THe idea was that it would be a 1 in 5000 chance of a key being able to open a random car from that manufacturer, and a 1 in 25 million (5000 squared) that it would also work in the ignition. House locks, padlocks and combination locks are similar. Those 1-40, three number combination locks we used to have on our lockers in school only have 64,000 possible combinations, as best. But due to the faairly loose tolerances (24 and 66 are close enough to 25 to work), and the limitations of the design (the need for a complete turn between the first and second numbers eliminates some combinations) there are probably only about 2000 actual combinations possible. Manufacturers, mass produce a limited number of different keys & locks, and just rely of the laws of probability to keep people from breaking other laws. A car thief can't rely on 1 in 5000 to make a (dishonest) living. That said, back in my college days one guy got a new pickup truck, and another one joked around by saying he was going to leave in "his" new truck. He went over, slid his key into the lock, and began to turn it, and the door opened! The guy was as surprised by his success as the rest of us, but he continued the joke, hopped inside, struck his key into the ignition, and..the engine turned over. So it does happen. It wierded us all out too. People told Joe that he should go back to the dealer and get his locks changed. |
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Post by thewarchief on Jun 24, 2024 13:16:15 GMT
Well considering it's Time Lord technology, it's not surprising it the Time Lords know a way around it. Maybe TARDIS are like automobiles in that there are a limited number of "keys" used. Considering how regulated TARDIS are, the Time Lords wouldn't really need a lot of different keys anyway. That would fit with with we see in The Deadly Assassin, when the chancellery guard pull out a box of keys to try and get into the Doctor's TARDIS. It takes the guard awhile too,y because the Doctor TARDIS is an old Type 40, a retired model. It's like trying to find a key for a 1959 Ford Thunderbird. That's what I was thinking about. Just debating if its . . . 1) This key opens all Type 41 locks (Binomic Tirurcate, I know I got this wrong but need to go and can't check the correct name), this key opens all type 80 locks (Octanomic Quinfacurate, made up but a reflection of increased complexity and security) being produced for the Chancellery or CIA. While each individual TARDIS also has its own personal lock and can produce keys for it. To clarify the TARDIS key is my apartment key that opens my apartment/TARDIS but not my neighbours apartment/TARDIS. The Type 41 key opens both as they are both type 41 TARDISs. or 2) All type 41 TARDIS's use a specific key and all type 60 TARDISS use a different one. So a Type 41 key will open any Type 41 TARDIS and the chancellery keeps a few spares in case of need. To continue the above analogy my apartment key opens the building door and my neighbours apartment key opens the building door even though they are technically different keys.
I think the doctor uses his key on the monks and the master's TARDIS's but I vaguely recall getting his key being a plot point for them so I need to go back and check.
I think it's more 2) the key opens locks on the same model TARDIS (and possibly similar era models, so maybe the key for a Type 41 would work on a Type 40, and Type 45 as well). There might be several locks used at any one time. My thinking is that the key is designed to keep non-authroized people out, i.e. non-Time Lords, as there should be no reason to keep a fellow Time Lord out. Changes get made to the keys every so often as a standard security precaution (like with passwords), when new advanced technology comes alone (now the key does a bio scan of it's owner), or when a key falls into the wrong hands and security is compromised (like maybe after the debacle with the Minyasn). I think most of that can be controlled or overridden from the control room for the off chance that a Time Lord could be captured and coerced into helping gain access to a TARDIS. I also think that the Doctor turns some of these features on or off as he deems fit, or that the TARDIS malfunctions and doesn't always implement all the security feature correctly. Some evidence for this is that: -In The Time Meddler the Doctor and the Monk seem to have the same model TARDIS, or very similar models, and the Doctor has no trouble getting into the Monk's TARDIS to sabotage his dimensional stabilizer. Conclusion: THe Doctor's TARDIS ket worked on the Monk's TARDIS.-In Spearhead From Space the Brigadier can't open the TARDIS door even with the key, with the Doctor stating that it had a "biometric" lock that would only open for him. Conclusion: The lock can be set to a specific bioprint or maybe to "Time Lords Only". Perhaps that is the default setting, but the Doctor turns that off so his companions can access the TARDIS? Naturally the Time Lords would turn that feature back on when the sent him into exile. [/font] -In the Deadly Assassin, when the guard tries to get into the TARDIS, he brings a box of keys, and it's mentioned that the Doctor TARDIS is an older, obsolete model. [font color="1979e6" ]Conclusion: There are several different keys, but not very many (say a hundred total, or at least a hundred master keys total_note this matches up well with the number of models of TARDIS) the fact that it was an old model TARDIS was mentioned, suggesting an older, obsolete model of lock. [/font] -During one of the Season 8 Episodes (sorry coffee hasn't kicked in yet) the Doctor takes the dematerlization circuit from the master's TARDIS. THe device is incompatible with the Doctor's older TARDIS. Later on, I think the Doctor needs the MAster's key to get in. Also later on, the key to the Doctor's TARDIS changes. Conclusion:[/b] Both models used the same key but after this incident, both the Master and the Doctor changed the locks on their TARDISes (TARDi?).[/font] -In Talons of Wen Chiang, a major plot point was the recovery of the key to thew time cabinet. Now it wasn't time lord tech (although originally I was supposed to be), but it does seem very similar. Conclusion: The key is more than just a key, and has somehow a vital part of the machine. Either that or they should have stuck with the Master as the villain, as originally intended. |
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Post by senko on Jun 25, 2024 0:54:09 GMT
Makes sense I can see it working like that which was why they had a box of keys. They knew one of them would work on the TARDIS lock but they didn't know which exact Type 40 key would be the one to unlock it.
Key's 1 - 12: Will open every Type 1 lock but Key 1 wont open locks coded to Key's 2 through 12.
Key's 13-20: Will open every type 2 lock as security advances.
So on through the various TARDIS models as security updates with unique key sets for special TARDIS models.
Hopefully they eventually got something like where I work where they use Falcon key's and depending on the model number it'll open specific locks. For example the Falcon 6 and the Falcon 8 are almost identical with only one different lock each. That is the Falcon 8 will open one lock type (used on signalling locations) the falcon 6 wont and the Falcon 6 will open one lock the Falcon 8 wont (comms locations), otherwise they open all the same locks but not all locks used in the network (neither will unlock electrical branch locks for example). The Falcon 1 only issued to the head of engineering will open any lock in the system. So later model TARDIS's with say a type 25 lock can all by opened by the High President Key but Key 2 will only open CIA TARDIS'S and Key 3 will open research TARDIS's and key 4 will open a different subset of research TARDIS's, etc.
Your friend with that truck was probably very worried about his locks.
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Catsmate
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Favourite Doctors: Thirteen, Six, Five, Two, Eight, Eleven, Twelve, One, Nine...
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Post by Catsmate on Jun 25, 2024 10:36:23 GMT
Well back in the '60's most cars used one of a small number of keys from that manufacturer, you could drop into (say) a Ford dealer and show them 'key Y' and get a spare on the spot. That's still mostly true today. It's something along the lines of 5000 different locks, one each for the door and for the ignition (although some cars use one key for both). THe idea was that it would be a 1 in 5000 chance of a key being able to open a random car from that manufacturer, and a 1 in 25 million (5000 squared) that it would also work in the ignition. House locks, padlocks and combination locks are similar. Those 1-40, three number combination locks we used to have on our lockers in school only have 64,000 possible combinations, as best. But due to the faairly loose tolerances (24 and 66 are close enough to 25 to work), and the limitations of the design (the need for a complete turn between the first and second numbers eliminates some combinations) there are probably only about 2000 actual combinations possible. Manufacturers, mass produce a limited number of different keys & locks, and just rely of the laws of probability to keep people from breaking other laws. A car thief can't rely on 1 in 5000 to make a (dishonest) living. That said, back in my college days one guy got a new pickup truck, and another one joked around by saying he was going to leave in "his" new truck. He went over, slid his key into the lock, and began to turn it, and the door opened! The guy was as surprised by his success as the rest of us, but he continued the joke, hopped inside, struck his key into the ignition, and..the engine turned over. So it does happen. It wierded us all out too. People told Joe that he should go back to the dealer and get his locks changed.
Wrt the tolerances of dial combination locks, I remember reading that in Feynman's biography, he practiced his safecracking skills during the Manhattan project. I used it myself to open an old three-dial safe once, took about a half-hour.
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Post by senko on Jun 25, 2024 11:01:00 GMT
That's still mostly true today. It's something along the lines of 5000 different locks, one each for the door and for the ignition (although some cars use one key for both). THe idea was that it would be a 1 in 5000 chance of a key being able to open a random car from that manufacturer, and a 1 in 25 million (5000 squared) that it would also work in the ignition. House locks, padlocks and combination locks are similar. Those 1-40, three number combination locks we used to have on our lockers in school only have 64,000 possible combinations, as best. But due to the faairly loose tolerances (24 and 66 are close enough to 25 to work), and the limitations of the design (the need for a complete turn between the first and second numbers eliminates some combinations) there are probably only about 2000 actual combinations possible. Manufacturers, mass produce a limited number of different keys & locks, and just rely of the laws of probability to keep people from breaking other laws. A car thief can't rely on 1 in 5000 to make a (dishonest) living. That said, back in my college days one guy got a new pickup truck, and another one joked around by saying he was going to leave in "his" new truck. He went over, slid his key into the lock, and began to turn it, and the door opened! The guy was as surprised by his success as the rest of us, but he continued the joke, hopped inside, struck his key into the ignition, and..the engine turned over. So it does happen. It wierded us all out too. People told Joe that he should go back to the dealer and get his locks changed.
Wrt the tolerances of dial combination locks, I remember reading that in Feynman's biography, he practiced his safecracking skills during the Manhattan project. I used it myself to open an old three-dial safe once, took about a half-hour.
Interesting and I know the TARDIS locks had their own features like multiple chambers where if you use the wrong one it slags the lock. I should look into how key chips work, I assume it has something to do with keyless starters. |
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