Brain of Morbius other incarnations theory

[senko]

Just something that popped into my head viewing a reaction tot his serial. There's a theory that betwen the 2nd and 3rd doctor there were a series of other advventures by the second before being plopped into the third. We've generally either ignored hte other incarations in brain or Morbius or attributed them to other doctors beyond the first. What if however they're really between the second and third but shown slightly out of order because they happend due to time lord meddling in a virtual timeline of the doctor. Since they were never "real" existing in a parallel timeline that never was they show up out of order. After the three the Doctor know's of as himself.

Thoughts? Is this plausible?

[misterharry]

Jun 16, 2024 4:59:56 GMT senko said:

Just something that popped into my head viewing a reaction tot his serial. There's a theory that betwen the 2nd and 3rd doctor there were a series of other advventures by the second before being plopped into the third. We've generally either ignored hte other incarations in brain or Morbius or attributed them to other doctors beyond the first. What if however they're really between the second and third but shown slightly out of order because they happend due to time lord meddling in a virtual timeline of the doctor. Since they were never "real" existing in a parallel timeline that never was they show up out of order. After the three the Doctor know's of as himself.

Thoughts? Is this plausible?

If you don't like the Timeless Child then OK, but it's not something I'd subscribe to. The Timeless Children expressly shows the Morbius incarnations as being pre-Hartnell, as does The Brain of Morbius itself. Addong a further complication is purely arbitrary and not supported by anything we see or hear onscreen or elsewhere. For me, Occam's Razor applies. (Also, TV Comic depicted the Second Doctor as the one being forcibly regenerated by the Time Lords' scarecrow servants carrying out their sentence at the end of "Season 6B", not any "lost" incarnation.)

[senko]

Jun 16, 2024 7:09:35 GMT misterharry said:

Jun 16, 2024 4:59:56 GMT senko said:

Just something that popped into my head viewing a reaction tot his serial. There's a theory that betwen the 2nd and 3rd doctor there were a series of other advventures by the second before being plopped into the third. We've generally either ignored hte other incarations in brain or Morbius or attributed them to other doctors beyond the first. What if however they're really between the second and third but shown slightly out of order because they happend due to time lord meddling in a virtual timeline of the doctor. Since they were never "real" existing in a parallel timeline that never was they show up out of order. After the three the Doctor know's of as himself.

Thoughts? Is this plausible?

If you don't like the Timeless Child then OK, but it's not something I'd subscribe to. The Timeless Children expressly shows the Morbius incarnations as being pre-Hartnell, as does The Brain of Morbius itself. Addong a further complication is purely arbitrary and not supported by anything we see or hear onscreen or elsewhere. For me, Occam's Razor applies. (Also, TV Comic depicted the Second Doctor as the one being forcibly regenerated by the Time Lords' scarecrow servants carrying out their sentence at the end of "Season 6B", not any "lost" incarnation.)

I'm not arguing against the timeless child, it has nothing to do with this. This is just speculation on whether those extra faces could be from the hypothetical series 6b when viewing that episode in isolation like the year that never was with the master.

[misterharry]

Jun 16, 2024 7:45:28 GMT senko said:

I'm not arguing against the timeless child, it has nothing to do with this. This is just speculation on whether those extra faces could be from the hypothetical series 6b when viewing that episode in isolation like the year that never was with the master.

My point still stands. The evidence we have points to the Morbius incarnations occurring prior to the First Doctor. If you want to assume otherwise you can, but it goes against what little we know of them.

Incidentally for anyone wanting to read (unofficial) stories featuring those Doctors, Obverse Books have published three anthologies of short stories for charity, now only available as ebooks - highly recommended, there are some little gems in them:

Forgotten Lives

[senko]

Jun 16, 2024 8:43:10 GMT misterharry said:

Jun 16, 2024 7:45:28 GMT senko said:

I'm not arguing against the timeless child, it has nothing to do with this. This is just speculation on whether those extra faces could be from the hypothetical series 6b when viewing that episode in isolation like the year that never was with the master.

My point still stands. The evidence we have points to the Morbius incarnations occurring prior to the First Doctor. If you want to assume otherwise you can, but it goes against what little we know of them.

Incidentally for anyone wanting to read (unofficial) stories featuring those Doctors, Obverse Books have published three anthologies of short stories for charity, now only available as ebooks - highly recommended, there are some little gems in them:

Forgotten Lives

To make my stance clear I have decided if Chibnill can retcon decades of lore to make his mark I can retcon his retcon for my home stories. As part of that I'll happily dabble with other theories to explain things that catch my interest. Maybe its forgotten regenerations from season 6b, maybe its alternate versions of the third doctor he could have been turned into, maybe its a trick developed for time lord wrestling to create fake personalities and memories that was developed after Mobius was defeated. So I have a theory and I'm wondering if it works. I know what canon is and I don't care because this is just a theory which I'm wondering if it holds together based on its own internal logic as theory crafting for potential plot hooks. I'm not going to be posting it on reddit to try and convince people its potentially true canon just like I'm not going to be posting my homebrew concept that the whole timeless child and the "doctor" we saw was a plot hatched by the master and Rassilon to try and hurt their enemy. The master wanting to finally win one and Rassilon wanting them to pay for his exile. Just like I'll also not be posting my theory the Rassilon in new who is not the real Rassilon but his version of the Valeyard caused by excessive regeneration creating a dark mirror. They're just theories I use for my home plots.

EDIT
I did consider posting it in the plot hooks section of the website but its not a plot hook yet just a theory I want to get feedback on whether it willl hold up on its own merits ignoring later revisions. So I felt series chat was the best place for it as it does involve the series and its not fleshed out enough yet to go into plot hooks.

[misterharry]

Jun 16, 2024 10:49:48 GMT senko said:

To make my stance clear I have decided if Chibnill can retcon decades of lore to make his mark I can retcon his retcon for my home stories. As part of that I'll happily dabble with other theories to explain things that catch my interest. Maybe its forgotten regenerations from season 6b, maybe its alternate versions of the third doctor he could have been turned into, maybe its a trick developed for time lord wrestling to create fake personalities and memories that was developed after Mobius was defeated. So I have a theory and I'm wondering if it works. I know what canon is and I don't care because this is just a theory which I'm wondering if it holds together based on its own internal logic as theory crafting for potential plot hooks. I'm not going to be posting it on reddit to try and convince people its potentially true canon just like I'm not going to be posting my homebrew concept that the whole timeless child and the "doctor" we saw was a plot hatched by the master and Rassilon to try and hurt their enemy. The master wanting to finally win one and Rassilon wanting them to pay for his exile. Just like I'll also not be posting my theory the Rassilon in new who is not the real Rassilon but his version of the Valeyard caused by excessive regeneration creating a dark mirror. They're just theories I use for my home plots.

EDIT
I did consider posting it in the plot hooks section of the website but its not a plot hook yet just a theory I want to get feedback on whether it willl hold up on its own merits ignoring later revisions. So I felt series chat was the best place for it as it does involve the series and its not fleshed out enough yet to go into plot hooks.

I understand, but you asked for thoughts on whether your theory is plausible. To my mind it's not particulrly, for the reasons I've given. Of course, anything's possible with the timey-wimey nature of the show - just not necessarily plausible (IMHO).

[senko]

Jun 16, 2024 11:19:29 GMT misterharry said:

Jun 16, 2024 10:49:48 GMT senko said:

To make my stance clear I have decided if Chibnill can retcon decades of lore to make his mark I can retcon his retcon for my home stories. As part of that I'll happily dabble with other theories to explain things that catch my interest. Maybe its forgotten regenerations from season 6b, maybe its alternate versions of the third doctor he could have been turned into, maybe its a trick developed for time lord wrestling to create fake personalities and memories that was developed after Mobius was defeated. So I have a theory and I'm wondering if it works. I know what canon is and I don't care because this is just a theory which I'm wondering if it holds together based on its own internal logic as theory crafting for potential plot hooks. I'm not going to be posting it on reddit to try and convince people its potentially true canon just like I'm not going to be posting my homebrew concept that the whole timeless child and the "doctor" we saw was a plot hatched by the master and Rassilon to try and hurt their enemy. The master wanting to finally win one and Rassilon wanting them to pay for his exile. Just like I'll also not be posting my theory the Rassilon in new who is not the real Rassilon but his version of the Valeyard caused by excessive regeneration creating a dark mirror. They're just theories I use for my home plots.

EDIT
I did consider posting it in the plot hooks section of the website but its not a plot hook yet just a theory I want to get feedback on whether it willl hold up on its own merits ignoring later revisions. So I felt series chat was the best place for it as it does involve the series and its not fleshed out enough yet to go into plot hooks.

I understand, but you asked for thoughts on whether your theory is plausible. To my mind it's not particulrly, for the reasons I've given. Of course, anything's possible with the timey-wimey nature of the show - just not necessarily plausible (IMHO).

I'm looking for feedback based on the context of the time. Your referencing the scarecrows at the end of 6b (I haven't read that comic) is what I'm after and has me working to revise it (or it will, I haven't started yet) but referencing timeless child or any other new who isn't really something I want to consider as its more in relation to itself rather than the overall look.

[thewarchief]

Jun 16, 2024 4:59:56 GMT senko said:

Just something that popped into my head viewing a reaction tot his serial. There's a theory that betwen the 2nd and 3rd doctor there were a series of other advventures by the second before being plopped into the third. We've generally either ignored hte other incarations in brain or Morbius or attributed them to other doctors beyond the first. What if however they're really between the second and third but shown slightly out of order because they happend due to time lord meddling in a virtual timeline of the doctor. Since they were never "real" existing in a parallel timeline that never was they show up out of order. After the three the Doctor know's of as himself.

Thoughts? Is this plausible?

Possible,maybe, plausible, not so much.It depends.

-If the rule of 13 regenerations holds true for the Doctor , then those faces would mean the Doctor hit his 13th regeneration somewhere around Paul MCGann.
-If the rule of 13 regenerations doesn't apply, then yes, it's possible, but that would mean the Doctor being send around by the Time Lords for several incarnations and untold years before being sent into exile on Earth, and would still leave his hitting what he beleived to be his 13th regeneration around McGann.

So either way the situation with the 11th Doctor being at the end of his regenerations would no longer hold true, since he would have had several more previous incarnations that he was aware of. Unless he wasn't aware of those incarnations.



Now when the story was written there was no limit on the number of times a Time Lord could regenerate, yet. That came the next year with The Deadly Assassin, which in turn made the extra faces in Brain of Morbius problematic, as that would mean several Doctors had been "used up" before the programme started.

At the time they explain them as previous incarnations of Morbius,or ignored them altoghter (as was done in the Target novelization).

And even the theories that considered the faces to be previous Doctors involved the idea of The Other, and falling into the loom.

And all that was long before Timeless Child.


The question I have is why go this route. What are you planning to do with those lost incarnations? That will be what justifies the idea or not. It all comes down to what the benefits are.

[senko]

Jun 17, 2024 5:04:56 GMT thewarchief said:

Jun 16, 2024 4:59:56 GMT senko said:

Just something that popped into my head viewing a reaction tot his serial. There's a theory that betwen the 2nd and 3rd doctor there were a series of other advventures by the second before being plopped into the third. We've generally either ignored hte other incarations in brain or Morbius or attributed them to other doctors beyond the first. What if however they're really between the second and third but shown slightly out of order because they happend due to time lord meddling in a virtual timeline of the doctor. Since they were never "real" existing in a parallel timeline that never was they show up out of order. After the three the Doctor know's of as himself.

Thoughts? Is this plausible?

Possible,maybe, plausible, not so much.It depends.

-If the rule of 13 regenerations holds true for the Doctor , then those faces would mean the Doctor hit his 13th regeneration somewhere around Paul MCGann.
-If the rule of 13 regenerations doesn't apply, then yes, it's possible, but that would mean the Doctor being send around by the Time Lords for several incarnations and untold years before being sent into exile on Earth, and would still leave his hitting what he beleived to be his 13th regeneration around McGann.

So either way the situation with the 11th Doctor being at the end of his regenerations would no longer hold true, since he would have had several more previous incarnations that he was aware of. Unless he wasn't aware of those incarnations.



Now when the story was written there was no limit on the number of times a Time Lord could regenerate, yet. That came the next year with The Deadly Assassin, which in turn made the extra faces in Brain of Morbius problematic, as that would mean several Doctors had been "used up" before the programme started.

At the time they explain them as previous incarnations of Morbius,or ignored them altoghter (as was done in the Target novelization).

And even the theories that considered the faces to be previous Doctors involved the idea of The Other, and falling into the loom.

And all that was long before Timeless Child.


The question I have is why go this route. What are you planning to do with those lost incarnations? That will be what justifies the idea or not. It all comes down to what the benefits are.

Honestly nothing. Just a theory that popped into my head and which could be combined with a few other ideas floating around involving null space, the valeyard, Rassilon and negative regenerations if you have too many could offer some story plot hooks. However I have been convinced it wont work and am looking into other possibilities at the moment.

[thewarchief]

Jun 17, 2024 12:39:34 GMT senko said:

Honestly nothing. Just a theory that popped into my head and which could be combined with a few other ideas floating around involving null space, the valeyard, Rassilon and negative regenerations if you have too many could offer some story plot hooks. However I have been convinced it wont work and am looking into other possibilities at the moment.

Relax, it's just a theory. I think misterharry sort of over reacted here.

My biggest problem with your theory here is whay didn't the Doctor notice the number of regenerations?

Now pre The Deadly Assassin there was no explicit limit mentioned as to the number of times a Time Lord could regenerate. Heck, even the term regeneration wasn't coined until, I believe, the Fourth Doctor.

So again, it really comes down to what you want to do with it.

I, for one, don't have a problem with someone retconning something since the writers and showrunners have done it all the time. The Doctor only had one heart until Spearhead From Space, and was reffered to as being human in the black & white era, even when subjected to medical exams.

So if you want to use "the faces" for something go ahead. If you want others to do so to, then you got to sell the idea. Much like how fans sold Season 6B to Terrance Dicks as a way to deal with the various continutiy problems with Troughton's Doctor in latter appearances and in the comics.

[lupercal]

"The Faces" and the Fugitive Doctor could all happened during 6B. Just say that the Timelords wiped the Doctor's memory, gave him a necessary extra number of regenerations, returned him to his Second Doctor appearance & then have the scarecrow incident happen. Presto! Now you have an interesting story that even the Doctor himself is unaware of.

Friendly greetings,
Horus Lupercal.

[senko]

Jun 18, 2024 2:24:53 GMT lupercal said:

"The Faces" and the Fugitive Doctor could all happened during 6B. Just say that the Timelords wiped the Doctor's memory, gave him a necessary extra number of regenerations, returned him to his Second Doctor appearance & then have the scarecrow incident happen. Presto! Now you have an interesting story that even the Doctor himself is unaware of.

Friendly greetings,
Horus Lupercal.

This was the explanation I was going to give the third doctor timelords seemed a lot more powerful than the fourth doctor versions (much less later ones) and they took his knowledge of time travel as part of his punishment if I remember right. If they can seal away the memories of decades of study they can probably do the same with some regenerations.

[greyhame]

My head-canon has always been that they were previous Time Lords that had operated the TARDIS. The TARDIS, being telepathic, was aiding the Doctor after sensing that he was losing mental-battle against Morbius. The TARDIS projected images of previous pilots into the Doctor's mind to help him last long enough to defeat Morbius.

[thewarchief]

Jul 2, 2024 22:42:57 GMT greyhame said:

My head-canon has always been that they were previous Time Lords that had operated the TARDIS. The TARDIS, being telepathic, was aiding the Doctor after sensing that he was losing mental-battle against Morbius. The TARDIS projected images of previous pilots into the Doctor's mind to help him last long enough to defeat Morbius.

Now that's a new theory. And it opens a can of worms that's bigger on the inside.

[senko]

Jul 3, 2024 4:43:02 GMT thewarchief said:

Jul 2, 2024 22:42:57 GMT greyhame said:

My head-canon has always been that they were previous Time Lords that had operated the TARDIS. The TARDIS, being telepathic, was aiding the Doctor after sensing that he was losing mental-battle against Morbius. The TARDIS projected images of previous pilots into the Doctor's mind to help him last long enough to defeat Morbius.

Now that's a new theory. And it opens a can of worms that's bigger on the inside.

An interesting can of worms though.

[thewarchief]

Jul 3, 2024 6:31:44 GMT senko said:

Jul 3, 2024 4:43:02 GMT thewarchief said:

Now that's a new theory. And it opens a can of worms that's bigger on the inside.

An interesting can of worms though.

Yes indeed. A very interesting can o' worms. It raises lots of interesting questions, such as:

● How did the TARDIS know to do this? Does it keep tabs on the Doctor?
● Has it done similar things to help out the Doctor. For instance the sudden reversal in the Doctor's battle with Goth in the APC net during The Deadly Assassin. Did the TARDIS give the Doctor a boost?
● Just who were those previous Time Lords and what happened to them?
● Could the TARDIS project their images inside, like it did with Amy Pond?
● IS the TARDIS linked to (and maybe monitoring) them the way it seems to be linked to and monitoring the Doctor?
● Can all TARDISes do that, or just the Doctor's?
● Why can they do that?
● Does this sort of thing come up often enough that it's standard, happens all the time, and we were just never told about it (like how it took over 40 years to find out that it's the TARDIS that translates languages for the companions)?
● Does the TARDIS pay attention to the stuff it translates for the companions and vicariously follow the adventures like someone listening to a story?
● Do TARDESes influece thier operator's behavior? FOr example, does the Doctor go around saving people and stopping evil because of the influence of the TARDIS? It would explain the change in the First Doctor's personality.
What happens where there are two TARDISes in the area? DO they both follow along with the storty and try to help thier operators?
● Does that mean the Master's and Rani's TARDISes are evil?
● Why do TIme Lords seem to prefer to use Time Travel devices other than TARDISes in the classic series? Only outcasts and renegades seem to use a TARDIS.

And that's before my morning cup of coffee.