Alien Appearance

[thephysician]

For the trait Alien Appearance, the Core Rulebook lists the cost as refunding 2 points for Minor and 4 points for Major, whilst Strange Strange Creatures lists it as refunding 1 point for Minor and 2 for Major. Does anyone know if the costs listed in SSC are a misprint, as I'm unaware of any Errata for this system?

[misterharry]

It's not a misprint. If you're buying Alien Appearance as a Bad Special Trait (i.e. as listed under Special Traits), then it provides 2 or 4 points. If you're buying it as a Bad Alien Trait (i.e. as listed under Alien Traits), it's 1 or 2 points. My assumption is that the former is intended for designing PCs and the latter is for NPCs and monsters. Having said that, I don't understand why there's a cost difference. And to add to the confusion, the original version of the GM's Guide (with the 10th Doctor-branded edition of the core rules box-set), the version of Alien Appearance listed under Specil traits is stated as an "Alien Bad Trait".

[misterharry]

Mar 12, 2024 14:17:30 GMT thephysician said:

Does anyone know if the costs listed in SSC are a misprint, as I'm unaware of any Errata for this system?

I overlooked your final comment in my previous reply - no, I don't think there are any official errata. However, I did produce unofficial errata sheets for most of the 1e supplements and sourcebooks, which can still be downloaded here:

DWAITAS Supplements - Errata Sheets

[thewarchief]

Mar 12, 2024 14:54:28 GMT misterharry said:

My assumption is that the former is intended for designing PCs and the latter is for NPCs and monsters. Having said that, I don't understand why there's a cost difference.

I think it might be that Alien Appearance as a Bad Alien trait means that your species looks alien to others, but that they look perfectly normal to each other (i.e. a Dalek doesn't consider another Dalek to look alien).

On the other hand the Alien Appearance as a Bad Special trait means that a character looks alien even to members of their own species (i.e Dalek Pig Slaves look alien not only to other species but also to humans and even to other Pig Slaves). So it's basically Alien Appearance twice over.


But that's just a guess.

[misterharry]

The more I think about it, the more the Special version (2/4 points) being for PCs and the Alien version (1/2 points) being for NPCs/monsters makes sense. A PC who looks like an alien will stand out on modern day Earth and probably be treated as a demon or similar in many parts of history. It's a significant disadvantage.

Whereas, if you're designing an alien NPC or monster, it probably hobnobs with its own kind, or comes from a future in which the appearance of alien races isn't so much of an issue. An alien invader on present day Earth is an alien invader whether it looks like a monster or not. There's still some disadvantage, but a lot less than a PC who's trying to fit in.

[thewarchief]

Mar 13, 2024 8:37:34 GMT misterharry said:

The more I think about it, the more the Special version (2/4 points) being for PCs and the Alien version (1/2 points) being for NPCs/monsters makes sense. A PC who looks like an alien will stand out on modern day Earth and probably be treated as a demon or similar in many parts of history. It's a significant disadvantage.

But that presupposes a past or modern day Earth setting. That can certainly happen, but what about a a game set in the future? For instance a PC Ood or some such? Or a NPC that gets stuck in the past.

For instance let's say that a player wanted to play a Sontaran, named Strax who ends up in Victorian England. If I were GMing the game, I'd have the player use the existing Sontaran template as their starting point, with it's version of the Alien Appearance trait. And I don't really see how PC Sontaran Strax would be any worse off than NPC Sontaran Linx, back in the middle ages.

Mar 13, 2024 8:37:34 GMT misterharry said:

Whereas, if you're designing an alien NPC or monster, it probably hobnobs with its own kind, or comes from a future in which the appearance of alien races isn't so much of an issue. An alien invader on present day Earth is an alien invader whether it looks like a monster or not. There's still some disadvantage, but a lot less than a PC who's trying to fit in.

But that would apply to PCs too. A PC Ice Warrior or Alpha Centauran in the Earth Federation would be in the exact same situation as a NPC, so why should they get more points?

I think it's a fallacy to say it costs more because it would affect PC more, because that is true of most flaws, as PCs are more important than NPCs, show up in more "episodes", get more "screen time" and roll the dice more often. Most traits for NPCs tend to be more of a way of fleshing out the character rather than a real disadvantage.


Like I noted before, I think Alien as a special trait means that the character is considered to appear alien even to their own people, whereas Alien as a species trait means they are not human, but are considered normal among their own kind.




Oh, I'm not sure if it is relevant, but one of the differences between PC aliens and NPC aliens is that NPC aliens are pre-defined. That is their special traits have already been defined by the show or by the author of an adventure. We know what a Dalek or Draconian is, and what alien traits they have, and those don't change.

PC aliens, on the other hand, are defined by the player who is free to pick whatever traits they want, with GM approval and limited by the usually factors limiting chargen.

[misterharry]

Mar 13, 2024 18:20:18 GMT thewarchief said:

But that presupposes a past or modern day Earth setting. That can certainly happen, but what about a a game set in the future? For instance a PC Ood or some such? Or a NPC that gets stuck in the past.

For instance let's say that a player wanted to play a Sontaran, named Strax who ends up in Victorian England. If I were GMing the game, I'd have the player use the existing Sontaran template as their starting point, with it's version of the Alien Appearance trait. And I don't really see how PC Sontaran Strax would be any worse off than NPC Sontaran Linx, back in the middle ages.

Strax is trying to blend in as he's living in Victorian London (and is often mistaken for a human), whereas Linx is an alien and not pretending to be anything else. For Strax, not looking human is a bigger disadvantage than it is to Linx.

But that would apply to PCs too. A PC Ice Warrior or Alpha Centauran in the Earth Federation would be in the exact same situation as a NPC, so why should they get more points?

Because the basis of the game is that PCs are travelling around in time and space. Yes, there can be different set-ups, but that's the basic assumption of the game. Whereas an NPC Ice Warrior or Alpha Centauran is generally restricted to a single story, so a single setting, the Galactic federation in your example. So the PC version will find Alien Appearance to be disadvantageous in some situations, whereas the NPC version probably won't as they're likely to be restricted to a single adventure.

I think it's a fallacy to say it costs more because it would affect PC more, because that is true of most flaws, as PCs are more important than NPCs, show up in more "episodes", get more "screen time" and roll the dice more often. Most traits for NPCs tend to be more of a way of fleshing out the character rather than a real disadvantage.


Like I noted before, I think Alien as a special trait means that the character is considered to appear alien even to their own people, whereas Alien as a species trait means they are not human, but are considered normal among their own kind.

If that were the case, it would be stated in the trait description. but it's not. In fact, there's no explanation of the different costs that I can find. My own explanation is just as much supposition as yours but it makes sense to me as the Special version of th traits is set out in the character creation section of the rules and the Alien version is set out in the monsters section for GMs.

[thewarchief]

Mar 13, 2024 18:58:38 GMT misterharry said:

Strax is trying to blend in as he's living in Victorian London (and is often mistaken for a human), whereas Linx is an alien and not pretending to be anything else. For Strax, not looking human is a bigger disadvantage than it is to Linx.

But Strax isn't trying to blend in. Far from it. He constantly refers to himself as a Sontaran, the Sontaran Empire and so on. Nor does he care if anyone notices that he isn't human. He is no more concerned with blending in that Linx. They both are suffering the same social problems associated with the trait. If anything Strax has it easier since Victorian England is a bit more tolerant than Medieval England.

Mar 13, 2024 18:58:38 GMT misterharry said:

]Because the basis of the game is that PCs are travelling around in time and space. Yes, there can be different set-ups, but that's the basic assumption of the game. Whereas an NPC Ice Warrior or Alpha Centauran is generally restricted to a single story, so a single setting, the Galactic federation in your example. So the PC version will find Alien Appearance to be disadvantageous in some situations, whereas the NPC version probably won't as they're likely to be restricted to a single adventure.

But that would hold true for nearly any trait. For instance since an PC is going to be in multiple stories they would get more benefit from Rapid Healing than an NPC (who probably won't heal until after the adventure) so why shouldn't they have to pay more for that trait too?

Or what about an alien NPC that appears in an adventure set on modern day Earth? Since the penalty would apply to them full time wouldn't it matter more than to a PC for whom it only matters some of the time? For example, say an NPC alien got stranded on Earth and joined up with UNIT or Toorchwood. They would be in the exact same situation as a PC.

Mar 13, 2024 18:58:38 GMT misterharry said:

If that were the case, it would be stated in the trait description. but it's not.

THey don't claim that the trait hurts PCs more either. The lack of any justification at all is the source of the problem.

Mar 13, 2024 18:58:38 GMT misterharry said:

In fact, there's no explanation of the different costs that I can find. My own explanation is just as much supposition as yours

Exactly. Which is why we don't have a clear solution.

Mar 13, 2024 18:58:38 GMT misterharry said:

but it makes sense to me as the Special version of th traits is set out in the character creation section of the rules and the Alien version is set out in the monsters section for GMs.

I don't think your rational does make much sense though as n you can make a case for nearly any trait being worth more to a PC, especially traits that affect social interaction as PCs will have to talk to NPCs to persuade them of things while most NPCs don't have to. For instance, Arrogant is more of a problem for a PC than it is for a Dalek. Social graces don't matter all that much when your running gliding around exterminating people.
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[misterharry]

I didn't intend to get into a detailed debate on this. I was just offering a suggestion which makes sense to me. Clearly it doesn't to you. It's also clear that neither of us is going to convince the other, so we're just going to go round in circles. Probably best to leave it at that.

[thewarchief]

Mar 14, 2024 8:08:51 GMT misterharry said:

I didn't intend to get into a detailed debate on this. I was just offering a suggestion which makes sense to me. Clearly it doesn't to you. It's also clear that neither of us is going to convince the other, so we're just going to go round in circles. Probably best to leave it at that.

Okay.
I thought we were trying to explain why there are two different versions of the trait.