[Scenario Seed] Had I known....

[Catsmate]

A quickie.

Had I known....

The 10MAR1947 issue of Newsweek magazine featured an interview with Albert Einstein in which he stated that

....had I known that the Germans would not succeed in developing an atomic bomb, I would have done nothing.

This comment was in regard to the 02AUG1939 letter (wiki) composed by Teller and Szilard, in conjunction with Eugene Wigner, and signed by Einstein, which warned then US President Roosevelt that Germany was working on the development of nuclear weapons. The letter recommended that  the United States begin its own nuclear program.
The letter led to action by Roosevelt and eventually began the Manhattan Project.

What if Einstein, perhaps prompted by information provided by a time traveller, declined to sign the letter?

The development of nuclear weapons would not have been prevented, but it could well have been delayed by a year or more, meaning that none would have been available to end the Pacific phase of the Second World War with the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Instead Japan might have been blockaded and bombed further, likely with the use of chemical¹ and biological² weapons, and further mass incendiary bombings.
Otherwise the planned invasion of the Japanese Home Islands, Olympic and Coronet, might have been carried out, with casualties in the region of fifteen million dead.

I explored a broadly similar scenario in A Fall Upon the Mountain where the PC arrive in Japan i 1995 to find history has taken another path.
In this scenario the PC must travel to 1939 and put right history, ensuring the development of nuclear weapons on schedule. This requires that they find out why their development was delayed and either convince Einstein to write to Roosevelt or remove the factor that changed his mind.



1. Vast supplies of phosgene, nitrogen and sulphur mustards, and other war gases were produced during the war and were historically planned for use against Japan, after the heavy US casualties at Okinawa. Likewise it was planned for hundreds of tonnes of captured German nerve gases to be transferred to the Pacific.

2. Rice fungus and perhaps Anthrax.

[grinch]

It’s the sort of plot I could see one of the Players being involved with.

tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Player

[Catsmate]

Feb 3, 2024 19:30:17 GMT grinch said:

It’s the sort of plot I could see one of the Players being involved with.

tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Player

Ooooo, I'd forgotten about them.

I was thinking of the classic idealist and a moral dilemma for the players,. but that's a good alternative.

[thewarchief]

At the risk of mentioning a series that probably doesn't sit well with Doctor Who fans, there was a good first season episode of Sliders where the scientists on an alternate Earth convinced the world leaders that atomic weapons were impossible. They kept the genie in to bottle until the episode where they had to use a nuke to take out an asteroid that was going to hit the Earth.

Speaking of alternate Earth's I wonder if Mondas developed atomic weapons? Perhaps not? That might be why they developed the cyber-bomb.

[Catsmate]

Feb 3, 2024 23:21:59 GMT thewarchief said:

At the risk of mentioning a series that probably doesn't sit well with Doctor Who fans, there was a good first season episode of Sliders where the scientists on an alternate Earth convinced the world leaders that atomic weapons were impossible. They kept the genie in to bottle until the episode where they had to use a nuke to take out an asteroid that was going to hit the Earth.

Speaking of alternate Earth's I wonder if Mondas developed atomic weapons? Perhaps not? That might be why they developed the cyber-bomb.

I remember the episode ('Last Days'). I winced at the errors, starting with Einstein not being involved in the Manhattan Project.

Personally I assumed that Mondas has nuclear weapons; they are a fairly logical progress once nuclear research begins.

[thewarchief]

Feb 4, 2024 16:08:52 GMT Catsmate said:

I remember the episode ('Last Days'). I winced at the errors, starting with Einstein not being involved in the Manhattan Project.

Well it was an alternate Earth, so it might not have been a error.

Feb 4, 2024 16:08:52 GMT Catsmate said:

Personally I assumed that Mondas has nuclear weapons; they are a fairly logical progress once nuclear research begins.

But do we know if they had nuclear research? We really don't know a lot about Mondas pre-Cyberisation. It may well be that Mondas had very different technology compared to Earth .The Mondasians seemed to have been ahead of Earth in some ways, notably computer and cyber technology, but they might have been behind in others. Considering how much Cybermen stressed converting humans in the series and how they often went into cryosleep when their numbers were low, I suspect they didn't have much of a grasp on cloning technology. Otherwise they could have just grown the organic components they needed.

Heck we're not even sure if the various Cybermen seen in the Classic series were once race that shared a common origin, or if the Cybermen rose on multiple independent planets at various times. Maybe the various groups met up and merged over the years. The core concept of improving the species with cybernetic implants would seem to be something that would happen on multiple worlds, with Cyberisation being the fate of those worlds that take it too far.

[Catsmate]

Feb 4, 2024 16:29:57 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 4, 2024 16:08:52 GMT Catsmate said:

Feb 4, 2024 16:08:52 GMT Catsmate said:

Personally I assumed that Mondas has nuclear weapons; they are a fairly logical progress once nuclear research begins.

But do we know if they had nuclear research? We really don't know a lot about Mondas pre-Cyberisation. It may well be that Mondas had very different technology compared to Earth .The Mondasians seemed to have been ahead of Earth in some ways, notably computer and cyber technology, but they might have been behind in others. Considering how much Cybermen stressed converting humans in the series and how they often went into cryosleep when their numbers were low, I suspect they didn't have much of a grasp on cloning technology. Otherwise they could have just grown the organic components they needed.

Heck we're not even sure if the various Cybermen seen in the Classic series were once race that shared a common origin, or if the Cybermen rose on multiple independent planets at various times. Maybe the various groups met up and merged over the years. The core concept of improving the species with cybernetic implants would seem to be something that would happen on multiple worlds, with Cyberisation being the fate of those worlds that take it too far.

True, they may have embraced bio-technology or another path. And I agree on the cloning, that would seem a more logical path to increase their numbers.

[thewarchief]

Feb 4, 2024 16:56:31 GMT Catsmate said:

True, they may have embraced bio-technology or another path. [/quote][/font]

I think so. From what I remember of Mondas the people were having climate problems due to the shift in the planet's orbit, so it would seem to me that they probably would have become preoccupied with survival/environmental technology to help them survive thier planet being moved out of the Sun's biozone. So goodmedical tech, computer tech, cybernetics (naturally),sealed settlements, and space tech (becuase the skills needed to succeed in space are about the same as you need if your planet moves out of the biozone).

Feb 4, 2024 16:56:31 GMT Catsmate said:

And I agree on the cloning, that would seem a more logical path to increase their numbers.

Which strongly suggests that there is a logical reason as to why they don't. Perhaps the technology has inherent problems, such as higher rate of genetic problems or some such occurring over multiple generations of copies. With the way the Cybermen seem to think, I suspect they would reject a technology that would create defective clones- even if it worked okay for a the first few generations. They are all about improving the species and removing perceived weaknesses. Or it might simply be that they don't want thier entire race based on one DNA pattern, as it could be targeted in some sort of generic warfare.


But then, the whole Cyberman thing appeared to have been a stop gap solution to survive the worsening conditions on Mondas. It's possible that they were so focused survival they forgot about reproduction, or even that it was originally prohibited in the Cybermen due to restricted resources (or even due to the potential fear or a Cyber takeover). So the Cybermen go on as they are, and can only increase their numbers through conversion. Plus they only seem to do it when their numbers are determined to be low. Hence they don't concern themselves with it, until their planners determine that they need more Cybermen, and then it becomes a major focus.

Hard to say, but considering on the show it is either a major issue or a complete non-issue suspect it is some sort of programmed response to surrounding conditions. Some sort of IF/THEN statement.

[Catsmate]

Bump.
On another Einstein-related note, here is another seedling.

I've finally started Stuart McLaren's Saving Einstein: How Norfolk Hid a Genius which covers those odd weeks in 1939 when Albert Einstein lived in a wood hut in the summer estate, near Cromer, of the rather eccentric Member of Parliament Oliver Locker-Lampson

• An odd individual. Former RN officer, Conservative and Unionist, opposed to Irish Home Rule (and independence), ardent anti-Communist, founder of the Blue Shirts (not the Irish Blueshirts) a private anti-communist militia. He also attempted to assist Jewish refugees to stay in Britain and was rather more involved in Russian politics late in the Great War than was sensible.
  

After Einstein left Germany, losing most of his possessions at the time, he ended up temporarily in the UK where, fearful of German attempt to kidnap of kill him, Locker-Lampson offered him the use of  property on his summer estate.

• It was rather more than just a wooden hut. Einstein's home was equipped with piano and gramophone, served by butler and cook, and was supplied with goat's milk (Einstein's preference) by a local flock.
  

Locker-Lampson was concerned about German agents and arranged for a substantial guard of estate workers, his family and fiends, all armed (mostly with rifles and shotguns) to ensure their guest's safety.

Now historically nothing much happened in Norfolk, and Einstein ended up in Princeton and later write the letter mentioned above. But in the Whoniverse things could have gone differently; German agents, time meddlers attempting to kill Einstein, time meddlers attempting to change Einstein's mind to their point of view, time travellers blundering in unaware of the significance of the location.
The usual, in other words.


Comments?

[thewarchief]

Feb 10, 2024 21:39:53 GMT Catsmate said:

Bump.
On another Einstein-related note, here is another seedling.



Comments?

I like the idea of something happening at the estate that gets covered up. Say...

The PC time travellers arrive at Newhaven Court (bypassing all the guard by materializing inside the house). The PCs were brought/attracted there by some sort of alien device that had been buried on the grounds when Hannah Jane had the house built, follwing some previous incident. The item/creature was dead, but instead has lain dormant, awaiting a being with sufficient brain power to serve it's purposes (like the Cybermen in Tomb of the Cybermen- in fact maybe Albert is being selected to be the next Cyber Controller or Cyber Planner). Good ol' Albert trips the scanners.


Now the PCs have to explain to the locals how they got into the house despite all the armed guards, and convince people that they are not German agents while trying to stop the alien device from taking Einstein's brain! And if that wasn't enough to keep them busy, a German Hit Squad shows up in the middle of the night to eliminate Albert.

Assuming the PCs succeed, their actions will have proven their good intentions, and the authorities will step in to hush everything up, and the world never finds out how eventful Einstein's stay really was.


Oh and good timing. I was writing up stats for British Army rifles and had just reached the Lee-Enfield SMLE.

[Catsmate]

Feb 10, 2024 23:56:36 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 10, 2024 21:39:53 GMT Catsmate said:

Bump.
On another Einstein-related note, here is another seedling.



Comments?

I like the idea of something happening at the estate that gets covered up. Say...

It's an ideal setting really; reasonably isolated (who voluntarily goes to Cromer?), incomprehensible local accents, locals loyal to the lord of the manor. And Norfolk has plenty of weird history.
Maybe mix in Gideon Fell (or Merrivale Carr); one of the early Fell books, Hag's Nook, was set in Norfolk.

Feb 10, 2024 23:56:36 GMT thewarchief said:

The PC time travellers arrive at Newhaven Court (bypassing all the guard by materializing inside the house). The PCs were brought/attracted there by some sort of alien device that had been buried on the grounds when Hannah Jane had the house built, follwing some previous incident. The item/creature was dead, but instead has lain dormant, awaiting a being with sufficient brain power to serve it's purposes (like the Cybermen in Tomb of the Cybermen- in fact maybe Albert is being selected to be the next Cyber Controller or Cyber Planner). Good ol' Albert trips the scanners.

A good basic start. I'm some compiled notes for a scenario set just prior to the English Civil Wars where a couple of stranded time travellers are searching for the lost Wash Treasure of King John (the incident happened where Norfolk meets Lincolnshire).

Feb 10, 2024 23:56:36 GMT thewarchief said:

Now the PCs have to explain to the locals how they got into the house despite all the armed guards, and convince people that they are not German agents while trying to stop the alien device from taking Einstein's brain! And if that wasn't enough to keep them busy, a German Hit Squad shows up in the middle of the night to eliminate Albert.

Ah, the classic trope. I expect they'll end up locked in a spare hut. Possibly with some goats for company.
I'd expect the Germans to have a bit of local support; Locker-Lampson had Fascist links a few years earlier and had been regarded as possible British Fuehrer by the Nazis.

In fact maybe there is a deeper game; maybe Locker-Lampson was deliberately enticing a German attack, to stir up public opinion?

Feb 10, 2024 23:56:36 GMT thewarchief said:

Assuming the PCs succeed, their actions will have proven their good intentions, and the authorities will step in to hush everything up, and the world never finds out how eventful Einstein's stay really was.

Absolutely. Also I'd expect Torchwood to get involved. Maybe that's why Einstein headed off to the US?

Feb 10, 2024 23:56:36 GMT thewarchief said:

Oh and good timing. I was writing up stats for British Army rifles and had just reached the Lee-Enfield SMLE.

An excellent, if idiosyncratic, rifle.

OT but one of the divergence points for my EDCverse was the UK abandoning the Lee-Enfield and the .303 SAA cartridge in favour of the Pattern 13 and the .276 round. Just in time for the Great War to erupt.....

[Catsmate]

And on the subject of Norfolk, I wrote about the town of Caistor as a possible location of weirdness.


Then again there is the plague of 1625, when Norwich was the second most prosperous town in England, and one of the most tolerant and full of travellers and immigrants. Anything, and anyone, might end up there.

• Then there is the maze of tunnels under the town, carved through the chalky earth beneath the city; as of 2024 these are considered unfounded, but that just means UNIT covered them up well.

The rich merchants that made their home in Norwich were prone to boredom and decadence; it’s probably no surprise that Norwich was home to all sorts of societies and fraternities, some more secretive than others.


Sherlock Holmes referred to "the singular adventures of the Grice Patersons in the Island of Uffa", which might refer to the earthworks ordered erected by King Uffa (Wuffa) at what's now called the Castle Hill, established the capital of East Anglia at Thetford about 575. Was it erected to cover the site of a crashed spacecraft?


Oh, and finally, Norwich Castle was built soon after the invasion of 1066 as the personal residence of an insignificant noble named William the Conqueror.

[thewarchief]

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

It's an ideal setting really; reasonably isolated (who voluntarily goes to Cromer?), incomprehensible local accents, locals loyal to the lord of the manor. And Norfolk has plenty of weird history.
Maybe mix in Gideon Fell (or Merrivale Carr); one of the early Fell books, Hag's Nook, was set in Norfolk.

Well that's describes just about any rural site in the UK, doesn't it? Only the incomprehensible accents change.

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

A good basic start. I'm some compiled notes for a scenario set just prior to the English Civil Wars where a couple of stranded time travellers are searching for the lost Wash Treasure of King John (the incident happened where Norfolk meets Lincolnshire).

And who knows just what was in that treasure? Perhaps some oddity from "a faraway land" that comes back to haunt us.

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

Ah, the classic trope. I expect they'll end up locked in a spare hut. Possibly with some goats for company.

If the BBC could afford goats. Probably just a sheepdog.

As far as the suspicion, to be fair, it really does apply this time. I mean the PCs show in in a place where there are armed guards about trying to prevent strangers and foreign agents from getting into. Someone is going to be upset about it and want to know just how a couple of strangers they managed to elude a couple of dozen locals. Obviously they must have had inside help from the manor.
Take out all the sci fi tech and what other explanation is there?

Oh, and the German agent(s) on site probably think the same thing, and that the PCs are agents for some other power (USSR, USA or even the UK government being clever) and that is what promts them to move up thier time table and attack tonight.

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

I'd expect the Germans to have a bit of local support; Locker-Lampson had Fascist links a few years earlier and had been regarded as possible British Fuehrer by the Nazis.

In fact maybe there is a deeper game; maybe Locker-Lampson was deliberately enticing a German attack, to stir up public opinion?

Yeah, considering his previous history he would be the prime suspect to mastermind all of this, except that..why did Einstein take him up on his offer them? And why did MI5 let him? Basically if Locker-Lampson is behind it then this is a major lapse in security, and everyone else looks like idiots. Unless...

It's all some elaborate ploy. The Brits know about the plan already through Enigma, and are setting up a trap to catch the unidentified Nazi agents behind all this. Five has a couple of "good men" working undercover (one as Einstein's new secretary), and they have a double staying nearby (the mysterious stranger would make a nice for a subplot) whom they will swap with Einstein after Albert has been spotted, passed the eye test, and his presence gets reported back to Germany. Said double could be some experienced but not famous stage actor doing his bit.


But this would ignore Locker-Lampson's strong support of Churchill and that he didn't get tossed into prison for being a traitor. So unless we come up with a explanation that gets him off the hook for his actions (mind controlled by the alien device? We've done that already), and that of the government, I suggest he is loyal and that someone else is behind all this. Maybe there some relative somewhere who doesn't survive the war. Do we know of any suspicious deaths in the area around that time, and/or could we invent one.

Oh, and speaking of fascists, maybe it's not the Germans who want Einstein (a Jew) but the Italians? That would really surprise most players. Cromer is on the coast (really, they couldn't put Albert much closer to the Continent if they had put him in Dover Castle), and the Italians had some nice flying boats. A Savoia-Marchetti S.66 could carry 22 passengers, more that enough for a strike team and Einstein. With a speed of over 160 kph and a range of 1200 km, it could do the job.

Savoia-Marchetti S.66
Armour: 6 Hit Capacity: 21 Speed: L(ow) 11

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

Absolutely. Also I'd expect Torchwood to get involved. Maybe that's why Einstein headed off to the US?

Well, if you want to involve TOrchwood, then I suggest that Locker-Lampson is part of Torchwood, and the manor is one of thier holdings. The who pro-facist thing was just a front put on by Toorchwood to sniff out the traitors and protect the Empire. That would explain Locker-Lampson's 180 degree political turn.

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

Oh and good timing. I was writing up stats for British Army rifles and had just reached the Lee-Enfield SMLE. An excellent, if idiosyncratic, rifle.

Yeah, there's not much to dislike about the various Mauser based 7.62mm rifles. They were all decent. I still joke that WWI was the war where everyone showed up with the same rifle.

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

OT but one of the divergence points for my EDCverse was the UK abandoning the Lee-Enfield and the .303 SAA cartridge in favour of the Pattern 13 and the .276 round. Just in time for the Great War to erupt.....

*Sigh* And I thought I could skip the stats for the P13. Ah well.

Pattern 1913 Enfield
Year: 1912
Caliber: .276 Enfield
Range Increments: 25/50/150
Ammuntion: 5 round stripper clip
Damage: 3/7/10
Recoil: -4 (but as a bolt action rifle it would take an action to ready another round for -6, so don't expect any "five rounds rapid" from this weapon.)


Game stats are almost identical to my stats for the SMLE except for the lack of a magazine. Yeah, the .276 has a lot more muzzle energy (3964 Joules) than the SMLE (3200-3500J depending on bullet) but not enough to push it up to 8 damage (on my damage table anyway). But it would only take another 75m/s to get the 600J needed to push the damage up to 8 and historically the 1917 Nitro rounds nearly did that for the .303, so an 8 damage P13 probably would have been a thing. Give them some steel core AP rounds and they could penetrate the armour on the AV-7s.

Twemty years later they could penetrate the SDk's, not to mention the Panzer I's and IIs. If the standard issue British Army rifle could do that in 1940...it might have made a difference. Perhaps enough to stop the blitzkrieg through France, since the Germans wouldn't be able to push forward with their lighter vehicles. And the .303 was the standard ammo for most UK aircraft, so if that were replaced with .276 Nitro...some interesting timeline possibilities from just the P13.


Now if we didn't have standardized ranges for weapons it could get even more interesting.

Jumping into the realm of house rules, we could give each weapon it's own range stat (one eight of it's effective range) and apply a-2 modifier for each doubling.

The generic game rifle from Defending the Earth would be assumed to have an effective range of 400m for a range stat of 50 would get +2 to hit at 25m or less, no modifier at 26-50m, -2 at 51-99m, -4 at 100-199m, and -6 at 200-400m.

Not that it isn't much different that what we got now, but tracks fewer numbers, is simpler (no extra penalty required for shooting past long) and is more flexible (we wouldn't need to add in new weapon types to cover things like the sniper rifles, big game rifles and such introduced in other Vortex RPGs).

By that method:

A Short Magazine Lee Enfield: EFFR 500m = Base Range 65, for -2 at 130m, -4 at 260m, and -6 at 520m

The Pattern 1917 .30 cal had an effective range of 550m (Base Range 70) so the P13 could possible had had an effective range of 600-650m (Base Range 75-80), and that's assuming they didn't make a HT version for snipers, which they would have. So no L42A1, so no 7.62 standard for NATO. So maybe a .276 FN-FAL, and a 7mm NATO Standard. The US would have had a harder time rejecting the .276 for the .223., although they probably still would have. Eugene Stoner would have designed the Stoner 62 weapon system in 7mm NATO (.276 Enfield) which probably would have passed all the trials, and NATO might have adpoted it as the standard, modular weapon system...so yeah, quite a lot of possibilities if the Brits adopt the P13 in time for WWI. That is assuming it worked out.

[Catsmate]

Feb 11, 2024 16:30:10 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

It's an ideal setting really; reasonably isolated (who voluntarily goes to Cromer?), incomprehensible local accents, locals loyal to the lord of the manor. And Norfolk has plenty of weird history.
Maybe mix in Gideon Fell (or Merrivale Carr); one of the early Fell books, Hag's Nook, was set in Norfolk.

Well that's describes just about any rural site in the UK, doesn't it? Only the incomprehensible accents change.

True enough, though television seems to have 'standardised' accents a bit. But even the Scottish cities verge into the incomprehensible.

Feb 11, 2024 16:30:10 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

A good basic start. I'm some compiled notes for a scenario set just prior to the English Civil Wars where a couple of stranded time travellers are searching for the lost Wash Treasure of King John (the incident happened where Norfolk meets Lincolnshire).

And who knows just what was in that treasure? Perhaps some oddity from "a faraway land" that comes back to haunt us.

Absolutely. Kings pick up, or are given, all sorts of things. Such as bits of alien technology that get found.

Feb 11, 2024 16:30:10 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

Ah, the classic trope. I expect they'll end up locked in a spare hut. Possibly with some goats for company.

If the BBC could afford goats. Probably just a sheepdog.

As far as the suspicion, to be fair, it really does apply this time. I mean the PCs show in in a place where there are armed guards about trying to prevent strangers and foreign agents from getting into. Someone is going to be upset about it and want to know just how a couple of strangers they managed to elude a couple of dozen locals. Obviously they must have had inside help from the manor.
Take out all the sci fi tech and what other explanation is there?

Oh, and the German agent(s) on site probably think the same thing, and that the PCs are agents for some other power (USSR, USA or even the UK government being clever) and that is what promts them to move up thier time table and attack tonight.

Feb 11, 2024 16:30:10 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

I'd expect the Germans to have a bit of local support; Locker-Lampson had Fascist links a few years earlier and had been regarded as possible British Fuehrer by the Nazis.

In fact maybe there is a deeper game; maybe Locker-Lampson was deliberately enticing a German attack, to stir up public opinion?

Yeah, considering his previous history he would be the prime suspect to mastermind all of this, except that..why did Einstein take him up on his offer them? And why did MI5 let him? Basically if Locker-Lampson is behind it then this is a major lapse in security, and everyone else looks like idiots. Unless...

It's all some elaborate ploy. The Brits know about the plan already through Enigma, and are setting up a trap to catch the unidentified Nazi agents behind all this. Five has a couple of "good men" working undercover (one as Einstein's new secretary), and they have a double staying nearby (the mysterious stranger would make a nice for a subplot) whom they will swap with Einstein after Albert has been spotted, passed the eye test, and his presence gets reported back to Germany. Said double could be some experienced but not famous stage actor doing his bit.


But this would ignore Locker-Lampson's strong support of Churchill and that he didn't get tossed into prison for being a traitor. So unless we come up with a explanation that gets him off the hook for his actions (mind controlled by the alien device? We've done that already), and that of the government, I suggest he is loyal and that someone else is behind all this. Maybe there some relative somewhere who doesn't survive the war. Do we know of any suspicious deaths in the area around that time, and/or could we invent one.

Oh, and speaking of fascists, maybe it's not the Germans who want Einstein (a Jew) but the Italians? That would really surprise most players. Cromer is on the coast (really, they couldn't put Albert much closer to the Continent if they had put him in Dover Castle), and the Italians had some nice flying boats. A Savoia-Marchetti S.66 could carry 22 passengers, more that enough for a strike team and Einstein. With a speed of over 160 kph and a range of 1200 km, it could do the job.

Savoia-Marchetti S.66
Armour: 6 Hit Capacity: 21 Speed: L(ow) 11

Excellent.
I'd have Locker-Lampson conspiring with some 'friends' in the numbered agencies, and perhaps playing both sides.

Here's an interesting oddity: Locker-Lampson's father (Frederick Locker-Lampson) dabbled in the occult (and collected both books and oddities) and had some associations with the infamous Mansfield Smith-Cumming, occultist and first head of Secret Service Bureau (and later MI6).

Late in the Great War Locker-Lampson (junior) was in Russia where he may have been involved in the assassination of Rasputin, the planning to evacuate Tsar Nicholas II out of Russia and  Kornilov's attempted coup against the provisional government of Kerensky and may have been on the fringes of the later Lockhart Plot (to kill Lenin and destroy the Bolsheviks).
A plot that Smith-Cumming was up to his neck in, along with his agent, 'Sidney Reilly'.
 

Feb 11, 2024 16:30:10 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

Absolutely. Also I'd expect Torchwood to get involved. Maybe that's why Einstein headed off to the US?

Well, if you want to involve TOrchwood, then I suggest that Locker-Lampson is part of Torchwood, and the manor is one of thier holdings. The who pro-facist thing was just a front put on by Toorchwood to sniff out the traitors and protect the Empire. That would explain Locker-Lampson's 180 degree political turn.

A good plotline. Though there could be different factions within Torchwood, with different plans. The UK's covert services were, and are, notorious for internal factionalisation.

Feb 11, 2024 16:30:10 GMT thewarchief said:

Yeah, there's not much to dislike about the various Mauser based 7.62mm rifles. They were all decent. I still joke that WWI was the war where everyone showed up with the same rifle.

The Germans sued the US over the 1903 Springfield after the war.

Feb 11, 2024 16:30:10 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 11, 2024 11:45:47 GMT @catsmate said:

OT but one of the divergence points for my EDCverse was the UK abandoning the Lee-Enfield and the .303 SAA cartridge in favour of the Pattern 13 and the .276 round. Just in time for the Great War to erupt.....

*Sigh* And I thought I could skip the stats for the P13. Ah well.

Pattern 1913 Enfield
Year: 1912
Caliber: .276 Enfield
Range Increments: 25/50/150
Ammuntion: 5 round stripper clip
Damage: 3/7/10
Recoil: -4 (but as a bolt action rifle it would take an action to ready another round for -6, so don't expect any "five rounds rapid" from this weapon.)


Game stats are almost identical to my stats for the SMLE except for the lack of a magazine. Yeah, the .276 has a lot more muzzle energy (3964 Joules) than the SMLE (3200-3500J depending on bullet) but not enough to push it up to 8 damage (on my damage table anyway). But it would only take another 75m/s to get the 600J needed to push the damage up to 8 and historically the 1917 Nitro rounds nearly did that for the .303, so an 8 damage P13 probably would have been a thing. Give them some steel core AP rounds and they could penetrate the armour on the AV-7s.

Twemty years later they could penetrate the SDk's, not to mention the Panzer I's and IIs. If the standard issue British Army rifle could do that in 1940...it might have made a difference. Perhaps enough to stop the blitzkrieg through France, since the Germans wouldn't be able to push forward with their lighter vehicles. And the .303 was the standard ammo for most UK aircraft, so if that were replaced with .276 Nitro...some interesting timeline possibilities from just the P13.


Now if we didn't have standardized ranges for weapons it could get even more interesting.

Jumping into the realm of house rules, we could give each weapon it's own range stat (one eight of it's effective range) and apply a-2 modifier for each doubling.

The generic game rifle from Defending the Earth would be assumed to have an effective range of 400m for a range stat of 50 would get +2 to hit at 25m or less, no modifier at 26-50m, -2 at 51-99m, -4 at 100-199m, and -6 at 200-400m.

Not that it isn't much different that what we got now, but tracks fewer numbers, is simpler (no extra penalty required for shooting past long) and is more flexible (we wouldn't need to add in new weapon types to cover things like the sniper rifles, big game rifles and such introduced in other Vortex RPGs).

By that method:

A Short Magazine Lee Enfield: EFFR 500m = Base Range 65, for -2 at 130m, -4 at 260m, and -6 at 520m

The Pattern 1917 .30 cal had an effective range of 550m (Base Range 70) so the P13 could possible had had an effective range of 600-650m (Base Range 75-80), and that's assuming they didn't make a HT version for snipers, which they would have. So no L42A1, so no 7.62 standard for NATO. So maybe a .276 FN-FAL, and a 7mm NATO Standard. The US would have had a harder time rejecting the .276 for the .223., although they probably still would have. Eugene Stoner would have designed the Stoner 62 weapon system in 7mm NATO (.276 Enfield) which probably would have passed all the trials, and NATO might have adpoted it as the standard, modular weapon system...so yeah, quite a lot of possibilities if the Brits adopt the P13 in time for WWI. That is assuming it worked out.

True, most of the 1900s military bolt-actions were pretty similar in firepower and stats, at least in AITAS.

[thewarchief]

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

True enough, though television seems to have 'standardised' accents a bit. But even the Scottish cities verge into the incomprehensible.

Well the audience does have to understand the dialogue. It's no good if it's accurate but no one understands what they are saying. Imagine if they did a historical episode set pre-vowel shift.

In fact, the accents are one of the hurdles that most of the people who I show Doctor Who to in the US tend to have a problem with. It takes them a couple of episodes to get used to the accents, especially when spoken rapidly as in normal speech under stress.

I shudder to think what would have happened if the new series had gone with something more appropriate for Cardiff.

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

Absolutely. Kings pick up, or are given, all sorts of things. Such as bits of alien technology that get found.

Enter the Peking Homunculus.

Anything that was rare, made of precious materials or just looked interesting could end up as a gift to a noble. That covers all sorts of alien nick-nacks. Maybe set up a advanture based around Carl Faberge's stuff?

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

Excellent.
I'd have Locker-Lampson conspiring with some 'friends' in the numbered agencies, and perhaps playing both sides.

Which means he could be a double or triple agent, depending on if you want him as a good guy or a bad guy.

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

Here's an interesting oddity: Locker-Lampson's father (Frederick Locker-Lampson) dabbled in the occult (and collected both books and oddities) and had some associations with the infamous Mansfield Smith-Cumming, occultist and first head of Secret Service Bureau (and later MI6).

And his wife directed the construction of the Newhaven estate that Einstein later stayed at. Newhaven. Haven for who, or what?

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

Late in the Great War Locker-Lampson (junior) was in Russia where he may have been involved in the assassination of Rasputin, the planning to evacuate Tsar Nicholas II out of Russia and  Kornilov's attempted coup against the provisional government of Kerensky and may have been on the fringes of the later Lockhart Plot (to kill Lenin and destroy the Bolsheviks).
A plot that Smith-Cumming was up to his neck in, along with his agent, 'Sidney Reilly'.

Okay. So what if the brought back something to Britain. Something alien. and something responsible for Raputin's remarkable constitution? Something that was sent off to Newhaven. Something that wants Einstein's Brain. 

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

A good plotline. Though there could be different factions within Torchwood, with different plans. The UK's covert services were, and are, notorious for internal factionalisation.

Possible, athough considering Toorchwood's ideals and goals they probably bicker over methods rather than the ends. Maybe one faction considers the Anglo-German alliance that Hitler wanted as a viable way to strengthen the Empire? Or at least buy time to prepare.

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

The Germans sued the US over the 1903 Springfield after the war.

Yeah but that was more of a money thing. The US did license most of the patents from Mauser before the war, but people have a tendency not to pay royalties to the enemy during war. Has the US gotten a hold of the 1938 Sturmgewehr design, it would have churned out thousands of unlicensed Sturmgewehr 44's during WW II. Intellectual property is one of the first casualties of war.

Feb 11, 2024 17:35:03 GMT Catsmate said:

. True, most of the 1900s military bolt-actions were pretty similar in firepower and stats, at least in AITAS.

Not that far off in real life either. They all fire what is effectively the same cartridge, with the same action, so they had to be similar. The same hold true for most of the various 5.56 carbines and rifles made in the last 60 years. Even the Soviet weapons followed the same pattern. And all that originated from the Sturmgewehr "Assault Rifle" concept.

That's probably true of any era though. Think about it. If one country or faction invents something that appears to or threaten's to outclass what everyone else is using, then everyone else will soon follow their lead and either emulate or copy their design. HMS Dreadnought comes to mind. No one wants to show up for battle with inferior tech.

Even more so in RPGs where we tend to get definitive stats, like damage, that prove that one weapon is measurably better than another in some way, at least in game terms, and where many of the non-numeric differences between weapons are not factored in.

When starting up the various service weapons, I often see things that make much sense in game terms, but made lots of sense in the real world. Things like carbines (like a rifle but less range and possible less damage) , or small & lighter bullets (less damage) , or continuing with smoothbore muzzle loaders after the development of rifling and breechloaders (lower range and poorer ballistics for ball ammunition). By Game stats the Ferguson rifle is superior to the Land Pattern "Brown Bess" musket. In real life, things aren't so one sided. A Brown Bess won't foul up as quickly, nor crack at the breech. In reality there are good reasons why the Brits keep the Brown Bess around for 150 years. It's just that most of them won't show up in game stats or be all that obvious when they do.

[thewarchief]

I might as well arm my Italian Special Troops

Carcano M1891
Caliber: 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano
Range Increments: 25/50/150 but should probably use Sniper Rifle, Period ranges (40/100/300). My Base Range for this would be 125m
Damage; 3/7/10
Ammo: 6 round magazine with 6 round en-bloc clips
Recoil: -4 (bolt action, takes an action to seat the next round)
Notes: The stadard issue rifle. Probably not used by the squad in favor of the TS carbine or Modello 38 SMG.


Carcano M1891TS Moschetto per Truppe Speciali Carbine
Caliber: 6.5×52mm Mannlicher–Carcano
Range Increments: 20/40/120 (my house rule for carbines, but it probably has rifle ranges)
Damage; 3/7/10
Ammo: 6 round magazine with 6 round en-bloc clips
Recoil: -4 (bolt action, takes an action to seat the next round)
Notes: Carbine version of the Carcano issued to Special Troops.


Beretta Modello 38 Submachinegun
Caliber: 9x19 M1938
Range Increments: 5/10/20
Damage; 2/5/7
Ammo: Box 10, 20, 30 or 40 round magazines available
Recoil: -4
Notes: A reliable high quality submachinegun, capable of burst and automatic fire. It reamined in production until 1975, and is still in use in the 2020s.


Beretta Modello 1934
Caliber: 9mm Corto (.380 ACP)
Range Increments: 5/10/20
Damage; 2/4/6
Ammo: 7+1
Recoil: -1
Notes: A solid sidearm that reamined in service until 1991. Special Troops probably have flash suppressors/sound moderators for their pistols.

Beretta Modello 1935
Caliber: 7.65mm Corto (.32 ACP)
Range Increments: 5/10/20
Damage; 1/3/4
Ammo: 8+1
Recoil: 0
Notes: Another standard pistol. Was very popular with allied troops after the war.


Glisenti Model 1910
Caliber: 9mm Glisenti
Range Increments: 5/10/20
Damage; 2/4/6
Ammo: 7+1
Recoil: -1
Notes: An older design, still in service. With it’s resemblance to the Luger, I included it for dramatic purposes as the sidearm of the lead bad guy, be he the Special Troop commander or a British traitor.


Bodeo Modello 1889
Caliber: 10.35mm Ordinanza Italiana
Range Increments: 5/10/20
Damage: 2/4/6
Ammo: 6 round cylinder
Recoil: -1
Notes:

[Catsmate]

The idea of an Italian operation is a fascinating one.
Fermi's Via Panisperna boys did some excellent research, including the discovery of slow neutrons, vital for induced fission. Though by '39 they were gone, and with them Italy's leadership in the field of nuclear physics.

[thewarchief]

Feb 12, 2024 15:46:08 GMT Catsmate said:

The idea of an Italian operation is a fascinating one.

Yeah, in part because they are sort of the "odd man out" of the Axis bad guys in fiction. The players will probably expect the Germans, probably wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese showed up despite being half a world away, but the Italians might surprise them. You could even foreshadow things with "Luigi the groundskeeper" or some such without tipping your hand.

Feb 12, 2024 15:46:08 GMT Catsmate said:

Fermi's Via Panisperna boys did some excellent research, including the discovery of slow neutrons, vital for induced fission. Though by '39 they were gone, and with them Italy's leadership in the field of nuclear physics.

Which could be all the more reason for Mussolini to want Einstein. In 1939 Italy was still considered the major power of the Axis. They were the ones with the best aircraft in the 20s and weren't restricted by the Versailles treaty or the naval treaties (much). It wasn't until 1940, when they got pushed back in North Africa and the Germans had to send them help that the status changed.

One hurdle might be that the Fascist in Italy had the same sort of racial discrimination as the Nazis, just not to the same degree, which is what drove Fermi and some of the others to leave. So if Mussolini does want to snatch Einstein, he's probably be looking at trying to get back Fermi. Probably set them up in a compound under guard somewhere.

And Ettore Majorana's strange disappearance in 1938 could be tied into all this. Maybe they grabbed him first?

Depending on how the adventure plays out, you could resolve everything at Newhaven, have a chase to the coast of Cromer (and the waiting seaplane) or have the PCs go to Italy to rescue Einstein.

The former is probably more in line with Classic Who, but you don't have to worry about special effects and location shooting in an RPG and can go big if you want. For instance, maybe Mussolini already has a bomb (either designed by Fermi, or a recovered alien device ) and just needs Einstein to duplicate it? Then the climax of the adventure could be the PCs preventing Fascist Italy from mass producing A-Bombs in 1939. Set the climax in some remote spot in the Italian Alps and you could end it with the prototype being set off. Perhaps by Majorana while the PCs and Einstein escape?


Just throwing stuff out there. The idea of the PCs going to rescue Albert Einstein so as to preserve histroy and discovering that the Italians already have an A-bomb that needs to be dealt with, would be a great plot twist for a cliffhanger.

[thewarchief]

Going with the idea of there being an A-bomb in this adventure, what if the alien device at Newhaven includes some enriched Uranium? Apparently, getting enough enrich Uranium was one of the arder, time consuming bits of A-bomb construction, and why the US only had two such bombs ready in late 45. If someone had recovered 100 kg or so of Urainum from the reactor an alien spacecraft they would have enough to make a couple Hiroshima style A-Bombs.

THe Uramium could be in a lead shielded compartment, with somone having died of what turned out to be radiation way back before they knew much about it. Jane Locker-Lampson had the house specially built in 1883-84 to safelt contain this danger. Newhaven Court has lead lined rooms to deal with this.

What if the whole estate was really a front for Britian's atomic program? Kind of like Bletly Park but for atomic weapons? That would explain Einstein. He is there to work the uranium into a bomb, but the Italians find out and try to capture him and the uranium.

The alien bit to the adventure could either be the main computer of the crashed ship, or some alien survivor who needed humanity to advance in knowledge and capability enough to repair the ship.

Again, just tossing it out there for you to pick & choose.
.

[thewarchief]

I'll sum up what we got so far and try to fill in the back stroy and make a timeline.


1849: Frederick Locker-Lampson leave the Admiralty, for health reasons, and begins extensive travels across Europe.
1850: Locker maries Lady Charlotte Christian Bruce, daughter of the Earl of Elgin and a friend of Queen Victoria
?: Locker collected fine and rare books, particularly Elizabethan imprints, Louis XVI furniture, and Chinese porcelain. (that was historically true, btw)
: bit of "Chinese" porcelain is actually not Chinese at all but part of the reactor to an alien spaceship. The item having an origin in the Italian Alps would help.
1857: Locker publishes his collection of verse.
1872: Lady Charlotte Bruce dies- probably due to radio exposure from the alien artifact.
1874: Lock marries Lady Hanna Jane Lampson.
1883-84: Jane oversees the construction of Newhaven Court. Probably part of an experiment on radiation. Either for the government or Torchwood. The Alien or Alien computer device works towards advancing human knowledge of physics and technology in order to be able to repair the spacecraft.
1885: Locker changes name to Locker-Lampson follow the death of his fathe rin law. Inherits family estates


1939: Organization behind Newhaven Court decides to enlist Einstein to help with their atomic project. Albert makes some sort of discovery or breakthrough that serves as the catalyst for the adventure.
-Axis spy alerts Italy of the break through.
-Alien/Device beings initiating it plans to repair the ship and leave Earth.
-Italian Special Troop sent in seaplane to capture "the device" and Einstien, who apparently is the only one who has figured out how to operate it (at least until the PCs arrive).
-PCs materialize in the mansion. They are immediately help upon discovery, under suspicion of being foreign agents.
-Alien plan to steal Einstein to fix ship initiated.
-Special Troop squad arrives.

At this point the adventure is either resolved with the PCs dealing with everything on site, or by going to Italy to rescue Einstein.
-If they go to Italy, Einstein is being held in a secret alpine lab, possibly with the missing Ettore Majoran.
-The site could be near or at the crash site of the alien spaceship, which would tie everything together.
-PCs need to rescue Einstein, deal with any A-bomb program, and deal with the alien and the spaceship before they cause more problems.

[Catsmate]

Feb 12, 2024 17:14:24 GMT thewarchief said:

Feb 12, 2024 15:46:08 GMT Catsmate said:

The idea of an Italian operation is a fascinating one.

Yeah, in part because they are sort of the "odd man out" of the Axis bad guys in fiction. The players will probably expect the Germans, probably wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese showed up despite being half a world away, but the Italians might surprise them. You could even foreshadow things with "Luigi the groundskeeper" or some such without tipping your hand.

Feb 12, 2024 15:46:08 GMT Catsmate said:

Fermi's Via Panisperna boys did some excellent research, including the discovery of slow neutrons, vital for induced fission. Though by '39 they were gone, and with them Italy's leadership in the field of nuclear physics.

Which could be all the more reason for Mussolini to want Einstein. In 1939 Italy was still considered the major power of the Axis. They were the ones with the best aircraft in the 20s and weren't restricted by the Versailles treaty or the naval treaties (much). It wasn't until 1940, when they got pushed back in North Africa and the Germans had to send them help that the status changed.

One hurdle might be that the Fascist in Italy had the same sort of racial discrimination as the Nazis, just not to the same degree, which is what drove Fermi and some of the others to leave. So if Mussolini does want to snatch Einstein, he's probably be looking at trying to get back Fermi. Probably set them up in a compound under guard somewhere.

And Ettore Majorana's strange disappearance in 1938 could be tied into all this. Maybe they grabbed him first?

Depending on how the adventure plays out, you could resolve everything at Newhaven, have a chase to the coast of Cromer (and the waiting seaplane) or have the PCs go to Italy to rescue Einstein.

The former is probably more in line with Classic Who, but you don't have to worry about special effects and location shooting in an RPG and can go big if you want. For instance, maybe Mussolini already has a bomb (either designed by Fermi, or a recovered alien device ) and just needs Einstein to duplicate it? Then the climax of the adventure could be the PCs preventing Fascist Italy from mass producing A-Bombs in 1939. Set the climax in some remote spot in the Italian Alps and you could end it with the prototype being set off. Perhaps by Majorana while the PCs and Einstein escape?


Just throwing stuff out there. The idea of the PCs going to rescue Albert Einstein so as to preserve histroy and discovering that the Italians already have an A-bomb that needs to be dealt with, would be a great plot twist for a cliffhanger.

Maybe the Italians unearthed something odd during their activities in Africa? It's a pity the Italians weren't meddling in French Equatorial Africa, or it could be connected to the natural fission events of Oklo.
Oh well.

Majorana is an interesting idea, I did a post on him previously (Ye Gods, nine years ago...). Perhaps Mussolini had previously dragged in Majorana to investigate the MacGuffin, only to have him flee/disappear/fall through time/be kidnapped by aliens. So his next choice is Einstein.

[Catsmate]

Feb 12, 2024 17:27:28 GMT thewarchief said:

Going with the idea of there being an A-bomb in this adventure, what if the alien device at Newhaven includes some enriched Uranium? Apparently, getting enough enrich Uranium was one of the arder, time consuming bits of A-bomb construction, and why the US only had two such bombs ready in late 45. If someone had recovered 100 kg or so of Urainum from the reactor an alien spacecraft they would have enough to make a couple Hiroshima style A-Bombs.

THe Uramium could be in a lead shielded compartment, with somone having died of what turned out to be radiation way back before they knew much about it. Jane Locker-Lampson had the house specially built in 1883-84 to safelt contain this danger. Newhaven Court has lead lined rooms to deal with this.

What if the whole estate was really a front for Britian's atomic program? Kind of like Bletly Park but for atomic weapons? That would explain Einstein. He is there to work the uranium into a bomb, but the Italians find out and try to capture him and the uranium.

The alien bit to the adventure could either be the main computer of the crashed ship, or some alien survivor who needed humanity to advance in knowledge and capability enough to repair the ship.

Again, just tossing it out there for you to pick & choose.
.

Yes, with period tech, separating uranium isotopes is a lot of effort. Most of the resources of the Manhattan Project went into it (about 1.19B of 1.9B) rather than the plutonium path.

IIRR the laser in Ace's Diskman was enough to give the Nazis the ability to mass produce fission bombs (an idea which I detested) in Colditz.
The vortex separation process, historically only used in South Africa in the '80s, was developed in 1934 and is one possible MacGuffin. Or the 'Tragellan method', from State of Change.

Now while a gun-barrel fission bomb takes a lot of HEU (the US MK1 design used ~60kg) an implosion design would use about one-tenth of this. In fact after the Trinity test Oppenheimer suggested scrapping the sole MK1 (historically used against Hiroshima) and recycling the uranium into implosion bombs. Graves refused the idea.

[thewarchief]

Feb 13, 2024 18:14:18 GMT Catsmate said:

Maybe the Italians unearthed something odd during their activities in Africa? It's a pity the Italians weren't meddling in French Equatorial Africa, or it could be connected to the natural fission events of Oklo.
Oh well.

I think it's better to keep this all European. Considering that it's 1939, how about the found something in Albania?

Oh, and if you want to tie this all together with whatever is going on at Newhaven Court, maybe there were multiple alien ships/devices dropped at the same time, and they were found by mutliple people so you have multiple governments competing with each other.

Feb 13, 2024 18:14:18 GMT Catsmate said:

Majorana is an interesting idea, I did a post on him previously (Ye Gods, nine years ago...).

Yes, he just vanishes. Honestly I think he was snatched by somebody in the real world. In the game, say Mussolini grabbed him to investigate an alien atomic device (weapon or reactor- either is good for a story), and the PCs run into him later, and he sacrifices himself to destroy the device. Of course it all has to be covered up, but maybe he gets a secret medal, posthumously. And the PCs will know.

Feb 13, 2024 18:14:18 GMT Catsmate said:

Perhaps Mussolini had previously dragged in Majorana to investigate the MacGuffin, only to have him flee/disappear/fall through time/be kidnapped by aliens. So his next choice is Einstein.

Perhaps, but then does Majorana show up in the adventure? IF not, do the PCs find out about his disappearance?

Oh, and another interesting angle, is that at least one of the PCs probably knows more about how to handle the McGuffin that either Einstein or Majorana, and a clever NPC will probably realize that. DO you need still Einstein if you have Oppenheimer?

[Catsmate]

Hmmm, Albania.
According to my notes there are two suitable UFO incidents in Albania.

The first one is particularly interesting and dates from 1907. A well known journalist named Mihal Grameno, who was also a nationalist agitator. His book, The Albanian Uprising, which is based on diary entries, states:

One night, while the fighters of Çerçiz were stationed at the top of a high mountain, a shiny object flew in front of us, stood suspended in the air for several minutes, and then disappeared.

• Çerçiz Topulli was a noted Albanian revolutionary and guerrilla fighter, fighting against the Ottoman Empire.

A curious incident, give how primitive aeroplanes were in 1907.


The other incident was in 1933 (O8JUL) where two "aeroplanes" were observed maneuvering strangely, in a manner not normal for the aircraft of the day, over the Adriatic city of Vlorë. It appeared on a list of strange  reports sent to the Prefect of Milan.

[thewarchief]

Feb 13, 2024 21:23:53 GMT Catsmate said:

Hmmm, Albania.
According to my notes there are two suitable UFO incidents in Albania.

The first one is particularly interesting and dates from 1907. A well known journalist named Mihal Grameno, who was also a nationalist agitator. His book, The Albanian Uprising, which is based on diary entries, states:

One night, while the fighters of Çerçiz were stationed at the top of a high mountain, a shiny object flew in front of us, stood suspended in the air for several minutes, and then disappeared.

• Çerçiz Topulli was a noted Albanian revolutionary and guerrilla fighter, fighting against the Ottoman Empire.

A curious incident, give how primitive aeroplanes were in 1907.

Well, it was the era of the airship, but since that doesn't help make a Doctor Who adventure, we'll say that it was a UFO and that it later crashed, although timing wise we'd need another incident to explain whatever was buried under Nehaven.

Feb 13, 2024 21:23:53 GMT Catsmate said:

The other incident was in 1933 (O8JUL) where two "aeroplanes" were observed maneuvering strangely, in a manner not normal for the aircraft of the day, over the Adriatic city of Vlorë. It appeared on a list of strange  reports sent to the Prefect of Milan.

A couple of possibilities spring to mind. The first is that they were searching for the craft that was lost in 1907.

The second is that they were too rival craft from rival powers. The Rutans & Sontarans for example.

-Horror of Fang Rock was set at the turn of the 20th century."Reuben the Rutan's" ship should have been in the sea near Fang Rock. Maybe a storm washed part of that ship ashore and it eventually fond it's way to the Locker-Lampson family.
-Then another Rutan scout stops by in 1907 to see what took out the Rutan Mothership several years back, but it crashed or was taken out by something (maybe a Sontaran ship, maybe a lucky shot by field artillery). This ship had something valuable on it.
-In 1933 two alien ships both show up to retrieve the valuable object but end up fighting each other.
-Locker-Lamspon finds out about this, possibly through the McGuffin in his control.
-In 1938 Mussolini finds out about the crashed ship in Albania after somone brings sort part of it to him. This give him some reason to believe it has something powerful and atomic on board, and he abducts Majorana to study the item.
-In 1939 Musolini ivades Albania (he was after it for years so he might have been aware of the ship for some time) and set up work trying to study/repair it.
-Since the two ships are linked by communications or sensors or some such, both sides are aware of what the other are up to, and so Mussonli decides to act when Locker-Lamspon bring Einstein to Newhaven Court.

-Oh, and if you use Rutans then it could be a shapeshifter and posing at Locker-Lampson, or Majorana. Majorana being the ideal candidate since he went missing. Say the Rutan got him and took his identity either right before Mussolini's men grabbed him, or that he went to Mussolini with some "discovery" and talked him into action.

[thewarchief]

Feb 13, 2024 18:28:59 GMT Catsmate said:

.

Yes, with period tech, separating uranium isotopes is a lot of effort. Most of the resources of the Manhattan Project went into it (about 1.19B of 1.9B) rather than the plutonium path.[/quote] [/font]

Right. So if a country stumbled across a hundred kilos (or a few hundred kilos) of the stuff it would greatly simply the process and they could probably get an atom bomb of some sort within a year.

Feb 13, 2024 18:28:59 GMT Catsmate said:

IIRR the laser in Ace's Diskman was enough to give the Nazis the ability to mass produce fission bombs (an idea which I detested) in Colditz.
The vortex separation process, historically only used in South Africa in the '80s, was developed in 1934 and is one possible MacGuffin. Or the 'Tragellan method', from State of Change.

Now while a gun-barrel fission bomb takes a lot of HEU (the US MK1 design used ~60kg) an implosion design would use about one-tenth of this. In fact after the Trinity test Oppenheimer suggested scrapping the sole MK1 (historically used against Hiroshima) and recycling the uranium into implosion bombs. Graves refused the idea.

[/font][/quote]

Yeah but it doesn't matter how much you need or how hard it is to product, if someone already did all the heavy lifting for you. If someone finds an Tech Level 8 reactor with a ton of enriched uranium, plutonium, or some advanced fuel material that's not on our periodic table, then the hardest bit is already done. Fashioning the bomb is the easy part.