S12 E5 Fugitive of the Judoon

[Nyder]

What did you think of it?

[markrand]

It'll be on BBC America Sunday night. I'll DVR it and watch it sometime Monday.

[ninjaconor]

Just when I was starting to worry this season wasn't going to be memorable they go and shoot that masterpiece onto my retinas! Definitely the best episode of the Whittaker era. Yeah, some could call it fan-service, but I love the whole universe of possibility they just opened up.

[Escher]

Well...wow.

[scottbarratt1989]

Fantastic! It will take me a week to process this one!

[thereviewer]

Well... that was... that was something. I was VERY impressed with this episode. Not going to give away any of the spoilers until later this week, but I have my own theory about one of the teases in this episode. Suffice it to say, I was VERY happy. I thought Star Trek: Picard would be the talk of the town this week either way, but Doctor Who just soared back up to new heights. Can't wait to see where this all leads to.

On an unrelated note, I have yet to see Star Trek: Picard (hence please do not spoil anything for me), but I understand it's decent. I don't want to get into spoiler territory but I'm just hoping for something better than Discovery. 

Overall, this was a great episode and I can't wait to see where this season takes us! Especially if my theory is correct. 

[ninjaconor]

I've just thought of something. Obvious spoilers so highlight the text to see.


Ruth didn't recognise the sonic screwdriver, so she has to be pre-Troughton. However, her TARDIS is stuck in police box mode, which, if I remember correctly, happened in the second episode of the classic series. We also saw Hartnell's Doctor stealing a non-police box TARDIS in Name of the Doctor, which further confirms that the chameleon circuit broke during Hartnell's time. So, Ruth must either be from between Hartnell and Troughton, or from an alternate time-line... or there are continuity errors, which wouldn't be that surprising.

[jay042]

There is another possibility.

Season 6(b) lasted a lot longer than we originally thought.

"The Five Doctors" and "The Two Doctors" established the whole idea of the Second Doctor staying in the service of the Time Lords for an extended period. Long enough for The Doctor to clearly age, what if the Doctor went through a few more regenerations in the Time Lords service, up to the Ruth version.

[markrand]

It was good, but confusing.

[imajica]

That was chaotic, confusing, and wonderful. It threw ideas around like a juggler with chainsaws, pineapples, and an uncooperative cat. Single best episode since the last regeneration, and better than a lot of Capaldi's to boot.

That should've been the New Year's special. That should've been how they started the new season. And I really hope the rest continue as strong.

Oh, and Picard? Superb.

[Stormcrow]

Didn't like it that much. Jack was just way too many Jack-cliches way too fast for no reason other than fan-service, and his only other role was to deliver a pointlessly mysterious warning that obviously won't make sense until it's too late for anyone to do anything about it, and is really just there for us to say "Ohhhhhhh!" when the time comes.

"Oh, by the way, here's an old Doctor you've never heard about before" was tough to swallow when it was John Hurt, but I forgave them because it was John Hurt, and because they obviously couldn't get Eccleston for the 50th anniversary, and it gave them an excuse to get Paul McGann back. But now Chibnall is just recycling from earlier seasons, and woe to anyone who hasn't seen "The Family of Blood" and has no idea where this "alternate" Doctor comes from.

I have a feeling all this alternate history stuff (Earth's future, the Doctor's past, the Master who doesn't seem to remember his attempt at redemption) is going to end up with an "it was all a dream" climax, in that the Doctor will find a way to set everything right again. I hate "it was all a dream" stories. The alternative is that Chibnall is erasing everything known about Doctor Who and replacing it with this stuff that has some superficial resemblance to Doctor Who.

And the Judoon being easily fooled and petulant removed any scariness they used to have.

[imajica]

Jan 28, 2020 16:10:18 GMT Stormcrow said:

I have a feeling all this alternate history stuff (Earth's future, the Doctor's past, the Master who doesn't seem to remember his attempt at redemption) is going to end up with an "it was all a dream" climax, in that the Doctor will find a way to set everything right again. I hate "it was all a dream" stories. The alternative is that Chibnall is erasing everything known about Doctor Who and replacing it with this stuff that has some superficial resemblance to Doctor Who..

Oh, gods, he is, isn't he? He's going to pull an RTD and press the big red reset button at the end of the series. Where's that Picard facepalm gif when you need it?

[olegrand]

Jan 28, 2020 16:10:18 GMT Stormcrow said:

Didn't like it that much. Jack was just way too many Jack-cliches way too fast for no reason other than fan-service, and his only other role was to deliver a pointlessly mysterious warning that obviously won't make sense until it's too late for anyone to do anything about it, and is really just there for us to say "Ohhhhhhh!" when the time comes.

Exactly what I felt. It also seemed like a forced, slightly gratuitous attempt to revive the old crowd's enthusiasm (ie come on, everybody loved Jack, let's bring him back!).

Jan 28, 2020 16:10:18 GMT Stormcrow said:

"Oh, by the way, here's an old Doctor you've never heard about before" was tough to swallow when it was John Hurt, but I forgave them because it was John Hurt, and because they obviously couldn't get Eccleston for the 50th anniversary, and it gave them an excuse to get Paul McGann back.

Well it WAS great to have Paul McGann back - but on the whole, here again, I completely agree.

Jan 28, 2020 16:10:18 GMT Stormcrow said:

But now Chibnall is just recycling from earlier seasons, and woe to anyone who hasn't seen "The Family of Blood" and has no idea where this "alternate" Doctor comes from.

You mean you have a theory about this whole "Doctor Ruth" (ouch!) nonsense? Please share it with us!

Jan 28, 2020 16:10:18 GMT Stormcrow said:

The alternative is that Chibnall is erasing everything known about Doctor Who and replacing it with this stuff that has some superficial resemblance to Doctor Who.

Yup. My wife and I have just rewatched the Christopher Eccleston season for the Nth time - and we've moved on to the Tennant episodes... and well, even after many, many visions, these episodes are GREAT - and the new ones just don't hold comparison. On one hand, you have well-crafted drama, with narrative tension, great characters, surprising events and perfect pacing... on the other, you have forced plot devices, rehashed material, gratuitous fan-servicing and somewhat clumsy (and persistent) PC lecturing on nearly each episode (just compare this with the way RTD managed to inject relevant social commentary or even political satire within his stories, while never losing the plot or giving the viewers the feeling they were given a lesson).

Anyway, despite all this, "Fugitive of the Judoons" was an OK episode - let's say Ok-ish. I just hope we'll get real ANSWERS and not some more-or-less convincing "season finale stunt" à la Steven Moffat. Ah, my true colors show: BRING BACK RUSSELL !!!

[thereviewer]

Okay, I'm throwing my hat in here and talking about the Time Lord in the room now before things get out of hand.

SPOILER: Click to show

So the "Rita Doctor" as I will refer to her as, does have the First Doctor's Console Room. This could suggest that she is from the time the Second Doctor spent during his missions for the Time Lords as we saw in The Two Doctors before his regeneration into the Third Doctor. But there has been something else I thought of. Another period of time later on in the Doctor's life when he no longer had his sonic screwdriver. When the Time Lords created a dark being from the darker aspects of the Doctor's personality and gave life to it calling it by the name 'The Valeyard.' Think about it; the Valeyard nor the Doctor at the time used the sonic screwdriver, and he was said to be taken from between the Doctor's Twelfth and Final Incarnations. Yes, I know with the War Doctor retcon and the retcon of Tennant being the Twelfth Doctor due to the events of The Stolen Planet that Matt Smith was technically the 13th, but come on. When has The Master ever made things easy for The Doctor? He said so himself in Spyfall Part 2.

But that's just my theory and I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong.

[Stormcrow]

Jan 29, 2020 8:55:43 GMT olegrand said:

Well it WAS great to have Paul McGann back - but on the whole, here again, I completely agree.

Oh, don't get me wrong. Any excuse to get McGann back on screen should have been, and was, taken on. He makes a great Doctor, and Night of the Doctor was really good. By "excuse" I mean "reason to show something from the Doctor's personal pasts."

Jan 28, 2020 16:10:18 GMT Stormcrow said:

You mean you have a theory about this whole "Doctor Ruth" (ouch!) nonsense? Please share it with us!

Just that this Doctor is the Doctor of a changed history. Something very significant has changed in the universe, leading to the Earth's destroyed future, alternate Doctors that our Doctor has never been, possibly a Master without redemption (this one feels less likely to me though), and a changed nature of the Time Lords, which is what leads the Master to destroy Gallifrey.

Either Chibnall is trying to completely eject all of previous Doctor Who, which he'd be crazy to do, or he's setting up an alternate timeline which the Doctor will have to fix, undoing all these alternate things. This is the "it was all just a dream" outcome.

Yup. My wife and I have just rewatched the Christopher Eccleston season for the Nth time - and we've moved on to the Tennant episodes... and well, even after many, many visions, these episodes are GREAT - and the new ones just don't hold comparison. On one hand, you have well-crafted drama, with narrative tension, great characters, surprising events and perfect pacing... on the other, you have forced plot devices, rehashed material, gratuitous fan-servicing and somewhat clumsy (and persistent) PC lecturing on nearly each episode (just compare this with the way RTD managed to inject relevant social commentary or even political satire within his stories, while never losing the plot or giving the viewers the feeling they were given a lesson).

Davies was also an expert at restarting an old show without rebooting it, and yet it wasn't clear until season 3 (and that just from a glimpse the Doctor's faces in the Journal of Impossible Things) that it actually wan't a reboot.

When he was leaving the show he kind of abandoned his restraint and started bringing in all the stuff he'd avoided to keep the series grounded: Gallifrey and the Time Lords, Davros, and so on. He did a great job with them, but he inextricably linked the new series with the old one from that point on.

Moffatt is good at writing creepy and time travel, but he absolutely sucks as wrapping things up logically. His climaxes are mostly just "I win because I'm the hero," not "All the things that have happened so far lead inevitably up to this point." He also wallows in fan-service and Mary Sue characters.

Chibnall obviously wanted to break with what came before the same way that Davies did, but he doesn't have Davies self-restraint. He also had a rabid fan-base to contend with that Davies did not. This second Chibnall series shows all the signs of him backing off his ideals and capitulating to the fans.

It's never a good sign when a show's producer capitulates to the fans. The fans may know what they want, but a producer is supposed to know what they never knew they wanted.

[Stormcrow]

This post is in the spoiler section of the forum, so I don't feel the need to use spoiler text here.

Jan 29, 2020 12:08:48 GMT thereviewer said:

SPOILER: Click to show

So the "Rita Doctor" as I will refer to her as, does have the First Doctor's Console Room. This could suggest that she is from the time the Second Doctor spent during his missions for the Time Lords as we saw in The Two Doctors before his regeneration into the Third Doctor.

This is a popular theory. It's also nonsense.

First off, this wasn't the First Doctor's Console Room. It was the base Console Room set redressed for a new Doctor. They want to get as much use out of that set as they can.

More importantly, the "season 6b" theory doesn't make any sense. Jamie and Zoe were taken from the Doctor at the same time. They were taken while the Doctor still had his second face, and he didn't look aged when he's laughing at Jamie chasing a Red Coat, who also doesn't look aged. The idea that he spends a long time on missions for the Time Lords before his exile on Earth begins, and that's why he and Jamie look older in "The Two Doctors" doesn't hold up. Their aged appearance is just one of those things you're supposed to ignore when you get former stars on for a guest appearance. Sometimes they explain it away as "shorting out the time differential," a cute throwaway explanation that means "It's just a show; you should really just relax."

And if Jamie is with the Doctor during "The Two Doctors," where is Zoe? She wouldn't stay behind while the Doctor and Jamie go off together on more adventures. There would be no reason for the Time Lords to allow Jamie but not Zoe.

No, the "season 6b" hypotheses makes no sense.

And then, if Jo Martin's Doctor is supposed to be an incarnation between the second and third, why does Jon Pertwee fall out of the TARDIS in "Spearhead from Space" in Patrick Troughton's costume?

But there has been something else I thought of. Another period of time later on in the Doctor's life when he no longer had his sonic screwdriver. When the Time Lords created a dark being from the darker aspects of the Doctor's personality and gave life to it calling it by the name 'The Valeyard.'

Colin Baker's Doctor may not have had a sonic screwdriver, but the Valeyard came from the Doctor's future. We know he regains the sonic screwdriver sometime in his future.

Think about it; the Valeyard nor the Doctor at the time used the sonic screwdriver, and he was said to be taken from between the Doctor's Twelfth and Final Incarnations. Yes, I know with the War Doctor retcon and the retcon of Tennant being the Twelfth Doctor due to the events of The Stolen Planet that Matt Smith was technically the 13th

Sure, lots of people have noticed that "between his twelfth and final incarnations" doesn't grammatically imply that the final incarnation must be the 13th. (Of course, that's what the writers were thinking, but these are the cracks that retconners are looking for.) If that were the case, then the Valeyard has already been created and gone on his merry way. If he even still exists. We've seen these upcoming echoes of Time Lords before, and they always end up BECOMING the Time Lord. This may have been what the Valeyard was. Who knows? Maybe this is where Capaldi's Doctor got his initial darker side. Maybe Moffatt was keeping the door open for a future encounter with the Valeyard when he named him in Capaldi's last episode.

But Whitaker's Doctor made a big point that neither Doctor recognized the other, so it can't simply be that Martin's Doctor comes between Troughton and Pertwee. Either she's from the Doctor's past and there's been some serious retconning and mind-wiping going on, or else she's not any part of the Doctor's lives that we know. This is why I suggest an alternate history Doctor.

You can make a couple of details match, but if all of them don't match, then either your hypothesis is wrong or the writers aren't doing their homework.

[thereviewer]

Jan 29, 2020 17:19:29 GMT Stormcrow said:

This post is in the spoiler section of the forum, so I don't feel the need to use spoiler text here.

Jan 29, 2020 12:08:48 GMT thereviewer said:

SPOILER: Click to show

So the "Rita Doctor" as I will refer to her as, does have the First Doctor's Console Room. This could suggest that she is from the time the Second Doctor spent during his missions for the Time Lords as we saw in The Two Doctors before his regeneration into the Third Doctor.

This is a popular theory. It's also nonsense.

First off, this wasn't the First Doctor's Console Room. It was the base Console Room set redressed for a new Doctor. They want to get as much use out of that set as they can.

More importantly, the "season 6b" theory doesn't make any sense. Jamie and Zoe were taken from the Doctor at the same time. They were taken while the Doctor still had his second face, and he didn't look aged when he's laughing at Jamie chasing a Red Coat, who also doesn't look aged. The idea that he spends a long time on missions for the Time Lords before his exile on Earth begins, and that's why he and Jamie look older in "The Two Doctors" doesn't hold up. Their aged appearance is just one of those things you're supposed to ignore when you get former stars on for a guest appearance. Sometimes they explain it away as "shorting out the time differential," a cute throwaway explanation that means "It's just a show; you should really just relax."

And if Jamie is with the Doctor during "The Two Doctors," where is Zoe? She wouldn't stay behind while the Doctor and Jamie go off together on more adventures. There would be no reason for the Time Lords to allow Jamie but not Zoe.

No, the "season 6b" hypotheses makes no sense.

And then, if Jo Martin's Doctor is supposed to be an incarnation between the second and third, why does Jon Pertwee fall out of the TARDIS in "Spearhead from Space" in Patrick Troughton's costume?

But there has been something else I thought of. Another period of time later on in the Doctor's life when he no longer had his sonic screwdriver. When the Time Lords created a dark being from the darker aspects of the Doctor's personality and gave life to it calling it by the name 'The Valeyard.'

Colin Baker's Doctor may not have had a sonic screwdriver, but the Valeyard came from the Doctor's future. We know he regains the sonic screwdriver sometime in his future.

Think about it; the Valeyard nor the Doctor at the time used the sonic screwdriver, and he was said to be taken from between the Doctor's Twelfth and Final Incarnations. Yes, I know with the War Doctor retcon and the retcon of Tennant being the Twelfth Doctor due to the events of The Stolen Planet that Matt Smith was technically the 13th

Sure, lots of people have noticed that "between his twelfth and final incarnations" doesn't grammatically imply that the final incarnation must be the 13th. (Of course, that's what the writers were thinking, but these are the cracks that retconners are looking for.) If that were the case, then the Valeyard has already been created and gone on his merry way. If he even still exists. We've seen these upcoming echoes of Time Lords before, and they always end up BECOMING the Time Lord. This may have been what the Valeyard was. Who knows? Maybe this is where Capaldi's Doctor got his initial darker side. Maybe Moffatt was keeping the door open for a future encounter with the Valeyard when he named him in Capaldi's last episode.

But Whitaker's Doctor made a big point that neither Doctor recognized the other, so it can't simply be that Martin's Doctor comes between Troughton and Pertwee. Either she's from the Doctor's past and there's been some serious retconning and mind-wiping going on, or else she's not any part of the Doctor's lives that we know. This is why I suggest an alternate history Doctor.

You can make a couple of details match, but if all of them don't match, then either your hypothesis is wrong or the writers aren't doing their homework.

Okay. Now you’re just attacking me. Firstly, I admit I haven’t seen ALL of Trial of a Time Lord, but do tell me; did The Valeyard use a sonic screwdriver in any of the Televised Episodes? Like I said, it’s my own theory and quite frankly, I’m at least trying to come up with a positive explanation. I also admit that I went a bit far with my introduction to my post, but in my opinion, stormcrow, and I say this with as much politeness as I can, you come across like you want to put others down. Others like me, other people who liked the episode, those who worked on it... you make it look like you want us to feel like garbage just because you didn’t like the episode. You’re starting to appear like a bully now rather than someone who tries to give fair criticism. I can at least admit when I’ve made a mistake. Why is that so hard for others to do? I hope you are able to understand what I am getting at, but if not, I’m going to walk away from this conversation with my head held high.

[Stormcrow]

Or maybe they're doing another "Wedding of River Song" but on a slower burn: the Web of Time is collapsing, and chaos is coming. Bits of never-weres and might-have-beens are showing up, including this alternate Doctor. The Doctor ends up in the middle of it by the point that time itself collapses, and she is the "Timeless Child" in that place that is no place or time, and has to reboot everything. Or some such.

[Stormcrow]

Jan 29, 2020 19:52:17 GMT thereviewer said:

Okay. Now you’re just attacking me.

Good grief. How did I do that?

Firstly, I admit I haven’t seen ALL of Trial of a Time Lord, but do tell me; did The Valeyard use a sonic screwdriver in any of the Televised Episodes?

No. He mostly sat in a courtroom and talked. Not much call to use a sonic screwdriver whether he had one or not. But that doesn't mean much. If the Valeyard was, for instance, one of those regeneration echoes, why would he have the Doctor's screwdriver even if the Doctor has one? The Doctor has it. The Valeyard also didn't step into a TARDIS in the episode.

Like I said, it’s my own theory and quite frankly, I’m at least trying to come up with a positive explanation.

Have you not seen the many ideas I have posted on this? One need not "solve" the problem to throw out ideas.

I also admit that I went a bit far with my introduction to my post,

How did you do that? I didn't see you go too far with anything. What are you talking about?

If you're talking about me calling the "season 6b" theory nonsense, that's not an attack on you, that's my opinion of the theory, which I did not hear from you. Don't confuse my criticism of an idea floating around the Internet with an attack upon you.

but in my opinion, stormcrow, and I say this with as much politeness as I can, you come across like you want to put others down. Others like me, other people who liked the episode, those who worked on it... you make it look like you want us to feel like garbage just because you didn’t like the episode. You’re starting to appear like a bully now rather than someone who tries to give fair criticism.

Fair criticism is not praise. Criticism can be positive or negative.

I thought the episode was meh, and I said so aloud when it was over. My main criticism of the episode was Jack Harkness appearing purely for fan service and to deliver pointlessly vague warnings; he played absolutely no role in the episode story itself. I said a new "inserted" Doctor was tough to swallow, but it has yet to be seen whether this will be explained satisfactorily. I worried that everything would end up as "just a dream" or the time travel equivalent, a trope that writers are supposed to eschew and which I dislike, but which we also haven't had resolved yet. Oh, and I disliked the nerfing of the Judoon.

That still seems like fair criticism to me.

I was a harsher critic of fan theories that don't make sense, but I never attacked any fans who like them. I discussed the theories, that's all.

I also separately talked about my feelings of the various producers of the show. I don't see why my opinions on them should make you feel threatened or attacked.

I can at least admit when I’ve made a mistake. Why is that so hard for others to do?

What mistake have you made? We haven't seen the answers to any of this yet, so we don't know what's right or wrong. If all this turns out to actually be a secret "season 6b," I'll happily admit I was wrong. "Yup! They sure got me there!" Well, maybe not happily, as I think a season 6b retcon would be awful.

I hope you are able to understand what I am getting at

Not really. I think you take my critical tone as a challenge to your right to have your own ideas. Nothing is further from the truth. The topic here is "What did you think of this episode," and these are my thoughts, directly coming out of it and indirectly by listening to the ideas of others. I'm not asking you to defend yourself, there's no reward for being right, and we're talking about fan theories about a genre TV show on a message board devoted to a niche title in the niche industry of role-playing games.

[ninjaconor]

I've been thinking more about this and I have a couple of ideas.

Firstly, I don't think alternate timelines will come into it. I think that would probably overcomplicate things and I think it's pretty clearly telegraphed within the episode that Ruth is an earlier version of our Doctor. The whole "potential future" thing in Orphan 55 was just referring to that future not being a fixed point and that it could be rewritten.

Based on this, I think Ruth would have to be pre-Hartnell or season 6b. I reckon pre-Hartnell, because the second Doctor used a sonic screwdriver, whereas Ruth had never heard of one. Technically a pre-Hartnell doctor shouldn't have a policebox Tardis, but I reckon that's an easy continuity error to make.

Then there's The Timeless Child: something that both The Doctor and Master have buried in their memories. Something that implicates the Time Lords in something so bad The Master would destroy them. It has to have been something that this pre-Hartnell Doctor and The Master were both involved in.

So, here's my theory: Before Roger Delgado died, the plan was to reveal that The Doctor and Master were separate aspects of the same Time Lord. What if that idea is being revived? The Doctor and Master were once both the same powerful Time Lord, The Timeless Child, Ruth. This would explain her moral greyness compared to the Doctors we know and her mad combat skills.

Ruth is on the run from the Time Lords for some reason. What if when they catch her, they separate out her devious ruthlessness to create The Master and her honour and sense of justice becomes The Doctor? Both lose their memories in the process and are given fresh cycles of regenerations and basically sent off to live their lives as normal Time Lords.

The Master found out about this and it gives reason to why he always felt so attached to The Doctor. Furious at being split in two by the Time Lords, he reverts to his evil ways and takes violent revenge.

I think The Masters arc will essentially be to remerge with The Doctor and The Doctor's to resist it as she has adapted better to life without her dark side.

[thereviewer]

Jan 29, 2020 20:34:41 GMT Stormcrow said:

Jan 29, 2020 19:52:17 GMT thereviewer said:

Okay. Now you’re just attacking me.

Good grief. How did I do that?

Firstly, I admit I haven’t seen ALL of Trial of a Time Lord, but do tell me; did The Valeyard use a sonic screwdriver in any of the Televised Episodes?

No. He mostly sat in a courtroom and talked. Not much call to use a sonic screwdriver whether he had one or not. But that doesn't mean much. If the Valeyard was, for instance, one of those regeneration echoes, why would he have the Doctor's screwdriver even if the Doctor has one? The Doctor has it. The Valeyard also didn't step into a TARDIS in the episode.

Like I said, it’s my own theory and quite frankly, I’m at least trying to come up with a positive explanation.

Have you not seen the many ideas I have posted on this? One need not "solve" the problem to throw out ideas.

I also admit that I went a bit far with my introduction to my post,

How did you do that? I didn't see you go too far with anything. What are you talking about?

If you're talking about me calling the "season 6b" theory nonsense, that's not an attack on you, that's my opinion of the theory, which I did not hear from you. Don't confuse my criticism of an idea floating around the Internet with an attack upon you.

but in my opinion, stormcrow, and I say this with as much politeness as I can, you come across like you want to put others down. Others like me, other people who liked the episode, those who worked on it... you make it look like you want us to feel like garbage just because you didn’t like the episode. You’re starting to appear like a bully now rather than someone who tries to give fair criticism.

Fair criticism is not praise. Criticism can be positive or negative.

I thought the episode was meh, and I said so aloud when it was over. My main criticism of the episode was Jack Harkness appearing purely for fan service and to deliver pointlessly vague warnings; he played absolutely no role in the episode story itself. I said a new "inserted" Doctor was tough to swallow, but it has yet to be seen whether this will be explained satisfactorily. I worried that everything would end up as "just a dream" or the time travel equivalent, a trope that writers are supposed to eschew and which I dislike, but which we also haven't had resolved yet. Oh, and I disliked the nerfing of the Judoon.

That still seems like fair criticism to me.

I was a harsher critic of fan theories that don't make sense, but I never attacked any fans who like them. I discussed the theories, that's all.

I also separately talked about my feelings of the various producers of the show. I don't see why my opinions on them should make you feel threatened or attacked.

I can at least admit when I’ve made a mistake. Why is that so hard for others to do?

What mistake have you made? We haven't seen the answers to any of this yet, so we don't know what's right or wrong. If all this turns out to actually be a secret "season 6b," I'll happily admit I was wrong. "Yup! They sure got me there!" Well, maybe not happily, as I think a season 6b retcon would be awful.

I hope you are able to understand what I am getting at

Not really. I think you take my critical tone as a challenge to your right to have your own ideas. Nothing is further from the truth. The topic here is "What did you think of this episode," and these are my thoughts, directly coming out of it and indirectly by listening to the ideas of others. I'm not asking you to defend yourself, there's no reward for being right, and we're talking about fan theories about a genre TV show on a message board devoted to a niche title in the niche industry of role-playing games.

Out of fairness, I will admit the last section you nailed on the head and I hope you recognize this in the future. Not everybody is going to share your opinions (something I have always admitted to) and sometimes even if you can't realize it, your words can unintentionally end up hurting others. This is admittedly something I struggle with every day but try my best to improve upon. I hope you will take this advice into consideration in the future that even if you don't realize it, your words can hold much more power than you realize and not everybody will read it the same way or even interpret it as a challenge. But I thank you for clearing that up and I hope we can both learn something from this experience. 

[Eryx]

An enjoyable episode but with a lot of fan favourite ideas shoehorned in to too short a space of time. Seeing the Judoon was nice after all this time, and I'm a big fan of Jack Harkness but he seemed pointlessly inserted to make fans squee and to set up something for a future episode. I was hoping for more from him after the big build up.

I couldn't help but think that this is all alternate timelines coming together. The odd future Earth from Orphan 55, Gallifrey destroyed (again!) and now a potential alternate Doctor... seems standard fare these days in sci fi. As long as it all comes together in a good season ender, I'll be happy.

[generalrose]

This episode was far more enjoyable to watch then the majority of Chibnall's tenure.

I like Jo Martin's casting and honestly wish she had been cast as 13 instead of Jodie. I dislike the implication that she's pre-Hartnell.

Alt. Universe I would like. Season 6B I would tolerate. Pre-Hartnell? If she's pre-Hartnell I might be done with Doctor Who until we get another showrunner who retcons that garbage.

[senko]

Still suffers the same sense of rushing things that's been plaguing this whole season where it feels like there is a plot they want to tell and they're just shoving as much in as fast as possible to set it up without giving us time to absorb or actually form an opinion on it.

I have to admit I winced at the Judoon showing up AGAIN as these super lawful mercenary police who at the same time are willing to violate laws. Innocent civilians die or suffer injurying its fine even though we're operating in someone elses juridsticiton and possibly in violation of local laws. The summary execution of a prisoner with no trial. Sigh.

Also I notice the Judoon no respond to Imperial regulation not the shadow proclamation possibly another casualty of established lore being thrown out.

I have my own theory about Ruth. I think she's not the Doctor but rather she's Jenny. The willingness to wield weapons, the same DNA as the doctor, the reognition of things that the Doctor doesn't like Gat. I think Jenny at some point came to call herself the Doctor and aquired a TARDIS she set up to resemble her dad's. The other possibility is that a rogue faction like Paradox tampered with her memories.

[misterharry]

It's only taken seven weeks for me to get the joke of the Judoon captain's name. Pol-Kon-Don = Paul Condon, former commissioner of the Met Police. I feel a fool!

[imajica]

Mar 17, 2020 20:40:49 GMT misterharry said:

It's only taken seven weeks for me to get the joke of the Judoon captain's name. Pol-Kon-Don = Paul Condon, former commissioner of the Met Police. I feel a fool!

Oh, FFS.

Thank you. It was bugging me!

[basalan]

Actually it was the name of a member of Big Finish who died.

[misterharry]

Mar 20, 2020 0:32:37 GMT basalan said:

Actually it was the name of a member of Big Finish who died.

No, that was Paul Spragg.

[spydalek]

There was a big fan called Paul Cordon who died. I'm pretty sure the Judoon Captain is named after him.

It's just a big coincidence that the former Met Commissoner was also called Paul Cordon.

[misterharry]

Mar 20, 2020 7:57:33 GMT spydalek said:

There was a big fan called Paul Cordon who died. I'm pretty sure the Judoon Captain is named after him.

It's just a big coincidence that the former Met Commissoner was also called Paul Cordon.

OK, fair enough. I wasn't aware of the fan. Odd coincidence.