Learning From Experience

[skudge001]

I have been using an experience system for DW with my campaign. It is a revision of the Primeval system which I felt would advance characters too quickly. Overall I do like this since it allows for character advancement in a way that the players can tailor. Generally I award 1 XP per session at the end of a story series. There are a few traits which don't fit well, such as experienced, since the character or skill point gains throw of the incremental advancement. Any thoughts on the XP system?


------
Learning from Experience

Changes to a character are expected to be gradual during the course of play. Players are encouraged to utilize experience points in ways that reflect the character's in game changes, activities, and story. Experience points will be awarded at the end of an episode series, based loosely on the length of the series.

Attributes - Increasing Attributes costs experience points equal to four times the new level of the Attribute (4 x Attribute new level).

Skills - Increasing Skills costs experience points equal to two times the new level of the Skill (2 x Skill new level). New Areas of Expertise cost two (2) experience points.

New Level 1 2 3 4 5 6
--------------------------------------------
Attribute 4 8 12 16 20 24
Skill 2 4 6 8 10 12

The cost for increasing Attributes or Skill multiple levels is cumulative, for example increasing an Attribute from level 1 to 3 costs 20 experience points (8 + 12).

Traits - Good Traits may be gained at a cost of three (3) experience points for a Minor Good, and six (6) points for a Major Good. Special Good Traits can be gained through in game events, plus experience points equal to three (3) times the cost of the Trait, and GM approval. Bad Traits may only be removed or gained through events during play.

Story Points – Maximum Story Points may be increased by one (1) at the cost of three (3) experience points. Conversely the maximum Story Points may be reduced by one (1) in order to gain three (3) experience points. This conversion allows players to bank unused experience points as Story Points until needed. Alternately the Story Points can be spent for Gadget creation as per the rules for the Boffin Trait.

[CountClockwise]

It did seem strange that the core rulebooks for AITAS had no concrete experience system. I feel like that from your description this is the right balance between story and game balance. I was thinking of doing experienced based on story arcs and character growth but if characters changed and developed faster than others in terms of raw numbers the game would start to become unbalanced. Anyway thanks for posting and don't mind if I use this in future campaigns

[tampahawke]

Has anyone put this alternate XP system thru the testing paces? if so..how well does it work..or has it needed tweaking?
Love to hear update on this alternate xp system..or others like it that some players may be using..
Thanks

[skudge001]

The experience system has continued to serve my players and I pretty well. Typically I award 1 XP per game session, which results in characters picking up an area of expertise or a minor good trait about every 2-3 sessions. Or the players bank the XP as story points (3 XP per SP) until they have saved up enough for something that is more expensive. The banking SP option has really helped the boffin with being able to create gadgets for the team without entirely depleting their personal SP pool. I do get a bit concerned about SP bloat when someone is banking a lot of XP. This doesn't get too problematic, but I have considered a 3 SP cap on the XP banking - although the bank seldom gets this high.

As mentioned previously not all traits fit well because they modify attributes, skills, and story points which don't fit the XP cost progression. For instance Experienced has a cost of 3 SP (9 XP), but gains 2 attributes and 2 skills. Depending upon the starting base attribute or skill if they were improved through XP the increases could have had very different costs. Because of this experienced and inexperienced are only available at character creation. I have awarded experienced as an end of series bonus, but it wasn't tied to XP. Wealthy (RA) is another one I limit to character creation because the XP cost and SP gain don't fit the experience formula especially when compared to the boffin gadget creation costs.

The characters definitely do get more experienced and have more options, so challenges may need to be increased somewhat - but not too much. Since we don't use the Doctor very often the extra experience has been helpful for the characters to take on some of the Doctor level challenges and have a hope of succeeding on their own. The team of Lost Companions have a small base and recently acquired a Type 21, Mark III, TARDIS so they are in need of that experience. I have been considering cost options for accessing Base and TARDIS traits in order for them to spend their precious XP on these resources.

One of the things I didn't describe initially is that XP can be spent at any time to acquire the new trait or improved skill or attribute. No need to wait until between sessions. This has created some dramatic moments when the character suddenly reveals a previously unknown ability that helps solve the problem at hand.

I also would like to get any feedback on how the experience system has worked out. Thanks.

[Escher]

The now-defunct Primeval RPG had official Vortex system advanced experience and character generation rules. Since they are unavailable and system-specific, here they are:

Vortex Advanced Character Creation & Development
Quoted from a former out-of-print publication.


Characters are created with 42 Character points and have 12 Story Points to begin with. Character Points can be spent on Attributes, Skill and Traits. Starting characters can have maximum Bad Traits totaling 6 points.
The maximum points allowed in Attributes are 24 and human characters cannot exceed a value of 6 in any Attribute.

EXPERIENCE
After each game session, each character gains one Experience Point (an especially generous GM might grant extra Experience Points after especially important game sessions or at the end of a big plot arc or season finale).

ATTRIBUTES
Increasing an Attribute should be a noteworthy event, and takes several months of training and discipline. It costs (five + the Attribute’s current level) Experience Points to raise an Attribute.

SKILLS
Basic Skills can be picked up easily—a character gains one Experience Point after each game session. A new Skill level costs an equal number of Experience Points. So, buying a new Skill costs 1 point, raising a Skill from level 1 to 2 costs two points, from 2 to 3 costs three points and so on. This means that it costs a whopping 21 (1+2+3+4+5+6) Experience Points to bring a Skill up from scratch to 6.
New Areas of Expertise cost 1 point each.

TRAITS
In general, Traits shouldn’t be bought with Experience - they should be awarded based on events in game. However, if the GM agrees, players can buy new Minor Good Traits for two points each, and new Major Good Traits for four points each.
Taking new Bad Traits doesn’t get you bonus Experience Points. The GM may allow you to buy off some existing Bad Traits with experience.

[boredeternal]

Thanks folks for the information. This has been a BIG sticking point with my players.

[Marnal]

THANKS! This is awesome!

[tampahawke]

Thanks both of you! ,, i'll print out both options and let the "table discussion" decide which format we'll try out first!-- and then test the Alternate option for an equal amount of time and see which one we end up liking better! that works for both the Storyteller and the Players equally thanks again!!~

[skudge001]

I have been reviewing the Learning from Experience house rule that I have in place and what I have been finding is that Traits are purchased quite frequently, while Skills and in particular Attributes are not being increased. The Experience Point (EP) costs reflect my understanding of the value of each element, with the narrower the use the lower the cost: 

    Attributes > Skills > Traits (Major > Minor) > Area of Expertise

The differences in the old costs seem to be too far apart for the players to consider all the options when using their EPs. As a result I have flattened out the costs between Attributes and Skills, and increased the trait costs. The Trait costs for the typical +2 for minor and +4 bonuses for major Traits are now in line with Attribute and Skill costs for levels 2 and 4. Areas of Expertise remain inexpensive because they have a very narrow range of use. I have been considering a 15 EP cost for Special Good Traits, but the variation in Special Good Trait costs doesn't support this. Here is one option: 

    Special Good Traits - Purchasing a Special Good Trait require GM approval and costs 10 EP plus any Story Point cost for the Trait. The gaining of a Special Good Trait should also include an in game event or subplot supporting the change. 

Let me know your thoughts on the changes. 

-----
Learning from Experience (v1.1)

Changes to a character are expected to be gradual during the course of play. Players are encouraged to utilize experience points in ways that reflect a character’s in game changes, activities, and story. Experience points (EP) will be awarded at the end of an episode series, based loosely on the length of the series at 1 EP per game session.


Story Points – The maximum Story Points (SP) may be increased by one (1) at the cost of five (5) EP. Conversely the maximum SP may be reduced by one (1) in order to gain five (5) EP. This conversion allows players to bank unused EP as Story Points until needed. Experience points and Story Points can be used to add or improve character Attributes, Skills, Traits, and Gadgets.


Attributes - Increasing Attributes costs EP equal to three times the new level of the Attribute (3 x Attribute new level).


Skills - Increasing Skills costs EP equal to two times the new level of the Skill (2 x Skill new level). New Areas of Expertise require a prerequisite skill of 3, and cost three (3) EP.


Experience Point Cost

New Level	1	2	3	4	5	6
Attribute	3	6	9	12	15	18
Skill	2	4	6	8	10	12

The cost for increasing Attributes or Skill multiple levels is cumulative, for example increasing an Attribute from level 1 to 3 costs 15 experience points (6 + 9).


Character Traits - Good Traits may be gained at a cost of five (5) EP for a Minor Good, and ten (10) EP for a Major Good trait. After character creation Special Good Traits may only be gained through in game events, plus EP equal to five (5) times the cost of the Trait, and GM approval. Bad Traits may only be removed or gained through events during play. Some Traits may only be taken at character creation because the Character Point, Skill Point, and SP linear rate cost and the EP exponential cost are unbalanced (for example, after creation the Experienced Trait linear Attribute and Skill increases have different values when purchased using EPs depending on what the new level EP cost is).


Alien Traits – Require the Alien Special Good Trait as a prerequisite. Not all Alien Traits will fit the setting as player characters, so the Traits are subject to GM approval. Costs are five (5) EP for a Minor Good, ten (10) EP for a Major Good, and Special Good Traits are five (5) EP times the cost of the Trait and an in game story event.


Gadget Traits – If a character does not have the Boffin Trait then a character gadget may only be acquired between adventures. Gadgets are bought with Story Points, Minor (1 SP), Major (2 SP), and Special (4 SP), reducing the owning character’s Story Point total. A character with the Boffin Trait may create a temporary gadget using jiggery-pokery as per the standard rules. At the end of an adventure the Boffin may convert a temporary gadget to a permanent gadget. The gadget may be kept or transferred, and the owner must then pay the Story Point cost for the new character gadget.


Time Lord Traits – Requires the Time Lord Special Good Trait as a prerequisite. All Time Lord Traits, and related traits such as Scion of Gallifrey, are subject to GM approval. Costs are five (5) EP for a Minor Good, ten (10) EP for a Major Good, and Special Good Traits are five (5) EP times the cost of the Trait and an in game story event.


Traits from Other Sources

Character Traits from other sources may be allowable with GM approval. For example, a character may take the Primeval RPG Team Player Special Good Trait. For a cost of three (3) Story Points the Team Player Trait adds one (1) Good Base Trait to a character’s base. The Trait may only be taken once by a character.


Non-Character Traits

The following Traits are not available for character creation or improvement, Apocalyptic Traits, Base Traits, Spaceship Traits, TARDIS Traits, and Weapon Traits.

[tampahawke]

have  you found that the "smoothing" over of the point by system with traits /skills has worked ?  have there been any other homebrew changes made to the system?
thanks

[skudge001]

Tampahawke, unfortunately I don’t have any additional info since my DW game has gone on hiatus until summer. I plan to introduce the change at that time.

[tampahawke]

just an update question on this topic: which method seems to be better this one - or the one proposed in 2E?

[skudge001]

Jan 14, 2022 1:05:32 GMT tampahawke said:

just an update question on this topic: which method seems to be better this one - or the one proposed in 2E?

Tampahawke, I'm not sure. Given the changes to the system I think it might be an apple and oranges comparison. While I have looked briefly at the 2E experience rules, I haven't used them in play. Looking back at my post, I see it was just as COVID hit which disrupted my regular Doctor Who game and has prevented me from play testing version 1.1. Not sure when I will be getting back to DW or which edition I might use. While I like 1E, there are a number of things in 2E I like also and would like to try out.