What say everybody now that some more 2e content has been re

[caffinatedd]

Now that some more 2e content has been released, has it changed anybody's mind as to whether 1e or 2e is better?

[tampahawke]

I don't know which is *better*. But I prefer the 1st edition over 2nd.

[grinch]

I still prefer the First Edition. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the changes made in the Second Edition and I think the Vortex system works well enough as is.

Not to mention, you can stat just about any character in the First Edition without trouble and accurately as well. Whereas in the Second Edition, I find you only get the broad strokes. 

[tampahawke]

Nov 16, 2023 20:30:25 GMT grinch said:

I still prefer the First Edition. I don't quite understand the reasoning behind the changes made in the Second Edition and I think the Vortex system works well enough as is.

Not to mention, you can stat just about any character in the First Edition without trouble and accurately as well. Whereas in the Second Edition, I find you only get the broad strokes. 

This. Exactly This. When talk of 2nd was first being brought up. I thought it would be fine tuning 1st Ed. Things like the xp system_ incorporating all the traits from other vortex system books into dr who,etc.

[Escher]

I tried to give the second edition a fair go, but it didn't work for me or my group. There was too much lost from the first edition that was good, and little gained.
The final decider was the bizarre new rules for Time Travel, in which even the Doctor can heavily damage and literally destroy the TARDIS with a few bad rolls, not to mention anyone less skilful than him at flying the TARDIS.  Most of the new rules add nothing to the gaming experience, like having to roll to dematerialise/rematerialise, which should be automatic. De-mat/re-mat is literally pulling a lever down or up (if anyone had researched it). They left out misjumps from the rules, which are far more fun and accurate for badly-plotted courses, rather than having the console blow up in your face and then needing repair with the even more bizarre new repair rules.

If I'd never seen the first edition, I'd say the second edition (apart from the time travel rules) is not a bad game, but the previous edition is practically perfect. It's a self-contained brilliant system that perfectly simulates the show, it's great fun and has all the material you need to run great games forever.

A shame that Cubicle 7 didn't see what an incredibly good game system they have there.

'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

[thewarchief]

Nov 16, 2023 15:12:28 GMT caffinatedd said:

Now that some more 2e content has been released, has it changed anybody's mind as to whether 1e or 2e is better?

Probably not. In fact, considering that the series has once again re-branded and moved onto the 14th and 15th Doctors, if anything it makes 2e as it stands even more of a one off, and less appealing. I wonder if we will get revised editions like we did with the 11th and 12th Doctor editions for 1E, or even a 3rd edition?

As things stand now, if I were running the game, I'd still use 1E, and covert any 13th Doctor/2e stuff that I wanted to use over to 1e, rather than the reverse.


I think that the long term success of failure of 2e is going to depend quite heavily on how well the new series goes. If it is a big hit, and characters, new aliens and such are reflected in future 2e supplements, then it will bring in more fans to the RPG and boost 2e. If the new series doesn't do well, then 2e is probably dead already.

[lupercal]

I wish that we could have had at least a 13th Doctor Sourcebook for 1e. But, oh well...

Friendly greetings,
Lupercal.

[thewarchief]

Nov 30, 2023 1:29:52 GMT lupercal said:

I wish that we could have had at least a 13th Doctor Sourcebook for 1e. But, oh well...

Friendly greetings,
Lupercal.

Or even just a 2e 13th doctor book with maybe some 1E stats thrown in? I think a big problem with 2e is that most of the target customer base already have 1E stuff. So it like" Throw all the stuff you bought from us before away so we can sell you 2e, which has less content than what you already have."

I think a better solution at this point would be to make future 2e supplements with game stats for both editions. Kinda of like how you used to get D&D and AD&D stats for some things back in the old days. It probably wouldn't take much more than an extra paragraph or two per entry, highlighted in another color, to cover 1e, and it would greatly increase the appeal of 2e supplements to those who prefer 1e. That assumes the goal of trying to make the product appeal to any many potential customers as possible in the hope of increasing sales.

[lupercal]

Or simply add an appendix with 1e stats for the entries? That would work as well.

Friendly greetings,
Lupercal.

[thewarchief]

Nov 30, 2023 22:37:55 GMT lupercal said:

Or simply add an appendix with 1e stats for the entries? That would work as well.

Friendly greetings,
Lupercal.

Yes it would, as would a web download addition for 2e supplements with the 1e stats.


If I were in charge of the line I'd probably just find some dedicated fans who like to post stats for the various characters missed in the official supplements and give them the green light to make 1e stats for the 2e stuff and then either post that on the C7 downloads page, or bundle it with the corresponding 2e. I sure Mister Harry & firends would probably do it for a bag of jelly babies.


But then I I believe that compatibility with D&D 5e is the main reason why 2e exists in the first place. I also think that the Doctors & Daleks D&D 5e line isn't such a great idea anymore, now that WotC seems determined to drive off their fan base and take ownership of all 3rd party content. So I think that 5e is a dead end, and would drop it and 2e in favor of supporting 1e and maybe a ORC based RPG, depending on what game takes D&D's crown (and fanbase).

[thornburgmp]

Dec 1, 2023 18:19:03 GMT thewarchief said:

But then I I believe that compatibility with D&D 5e is the main reason why 2e exists in the first place. I also think that the Doctors & Daleks D&D 5e line isn't such a great idea anymore, now that WotC seems determined to drive off their fan base and take ownership of all 3rd party content. So I think that 5e is a dead end, and would drop it and 2e in favor of supporting 1e and maybe a ORC based RPG, depending on what game takes D&D's crown (and fanbase).

It's not really any of my business what C7's business model is, but I had a couple thoughts on this:

• It probably made more sense prior to the OGL fiasco, but I do think there's a large segment of the RPG hobby that (unfortunately) will only play D&D 5e. My spouse and I run a fairly large RPG group on Meetup.com with most of our games online and it's a running joke that we struggle to get players for any game except 5e which will fill within the hour we put it up. I think a lot of RPG fans don't want to learn the rules to a new system, which is ironic because 5e and D&D in general is far more clunky and complex than the elegance of the Vortex Doctor Who RPG. I think C7 is gambling this time that the Doctor Who RPG we all love has a dedicated fanbase that will sustain the line and they can draw in new players with the 5e hook in Doctors and Daleks.
• I'm getting vibes from the "dual systems" of C7's Lord of the Rings lines, Adventures in Middle Earth and One Ring. I think Lord of the Rings is a far better fit for 5e compared to Doctor Who and that might explain how AIME did so much better at the apparent expense of the One Ring. Once again, I think (hope?) C7 is assuming we will remain loyal to DW RPG and new players will try Doctors and Daleks.
• I wonder how hard it is to keep the license to these big properties, especially for a small company like C7. I know they famously lost the rights to Lord of the Rings and had to unceremoniously end One Ring and AIME. I assume both Doctor Who RPG 2e and Doctors and Daleks is an attempt to make the most of that license.

[thewarchief]

Dec 28, 2023 11:27:19 GMT thornburgmp said:

It's not really any of my business what C7's business model is, but I had a couple thoughts on this:

It is as far as you being a customer, and having a customer relationship to them, including the ability to comment give feedback and suggestions. THat doesn't mean they (or anyone else) has to listen to you (or any other customer) but it's usually bad business to ingore the customer wishes.

Dec 28, 2023 11:27:19 GMT thornburgmp said:

• It probably made more sense prior to the OGL fiasco, but I do think there's a large segment of the RPG hobby that (unfortunately) will only play D&D 5e. My spouse and I run a fairly large RPG group on Meetup.com with most of our games online and it's a running joke that we struggle to get players for any game except 5e which will fill within the hour we put it up. I think a lot of RPG fans don't want to learn the rules to a new system, which is ironic because 5e and D&D in general is far more clunky and complex than the elegance of the Vortex Doctor Who RPG. I think C7 is gambling this time that the Doctor Who RPG we all love has a dedicated fanbase that will sustain the line and they can draw in new players with the 5e hook in Doctors and Daleks.

I mostly agree with you. I think the current state of WotC and Hasbro might just kill D&D off, and those who "will only play D&D" with either have to migrate to another game (most likely Pathfinder) or be stuck with an "orphan" game system.

Dec 28, 2023 11:27:19 GMT thornburgmp said:

[li]I'm getting vibes from the "dual systems" of C7's Lord of the Rings lines, Adventures in Middle Earth and One Ring. I think Lord of the Rings is a far better fit for 5e compared to Doctor Who and that might explain how AIME did so much better at the apparent expense of the One Ring. Once again, I think (hope?) C7 is assuming we will remain loyal to DW RPG and new players will try Doctors and Daleks.

[/li]

Yes, for years it was well known that making a D&D product meant tapping into a biggest share of the market base. It's why D&D 3E was so successful. Some companies, such as AEG would even make D&D products to fund their own in house game system. I think that the whole Doctor & Daleks 5E line was an attempt to do what they did with TOR/AIME with Doctor Who. But I think outside events (the problems with D&D and the decline in popularity of the TV series) have undermined the idea.

UH, and keep in mind C7 doesn't have TOR or AIME anymore.

Dec 28, 2023 11:27:19 GMT thornburgmp said:

[li]I wonder how hard it is to keep the license to these big properties, especially for a small company like C7. I know they famously lost the rights to Lord of the Rings and had to unceremoniously end One Ring and AIME. I assume both Doctor Who RPG 2e and Doctors and Daleks is an attempt to make the most of that license.

[/li][/ul]

It depends on the terms, but generally the problem is in sales. The company must pay something for the license, so the game needs to sell better than a non licensed game in order to be as profitable as a non licensed game. SO it comes down to if the license is popular enough to offset it cost. Now at the risk of putting a dampener on this, virtually every RPG license ends at some point. Star Trek, Star Wars, Middle Earth, and yes, even Doctor Who have all had several different RPGs under several different companies. C7's had the write for doctor Who since at least 2009.


But ultimately it comes down to whatever the terms of the agreement are between the BBC and C7, if both parties are satisfied with that agreement, and if the game sales are enough to keep the agreement viable.

BTW, keep in mind that 1E stuff is still available , so it's not like 1E fans are out in the cold. They still got a couple of dozen game books out there for them, and they can buy 2E stuff and adapt it to 1E.

Ultimately though, I think the line has some obstacles ahead, the vast majority of which had nothing to do with C7.