Alternate Tardis power source?

[greyhame]

While I know that most Tardises are powered by the Eye of Harmony - either the prime one or one installed in a Tardis, I was wondering if a Time Lord could create a different power source for his Tardis (in the event that his Tardises power source is blocked/lost/destroyed?

Perhaps something like an series of 'artificial quantum singularities' or 'zero-point energy collectors'?

[Stormcrow]

I was under the impression that that was exactly what the Doctor was doing when he parked the TARDIS on the Cardiff Rift: recharging the TARDIS. Later, Moffat ignored this and went back to the Eye of Harmony idea. The explanation of the Eye, evolved over a bunch of contradictory writers, seems to be that there is a single Eye of Harmony, and every TARDIS is connected to it for power. In Davies seasons it was assumed that the Eye was locked away in the Time Lock, while in the Moffat seasons the Eye of Harmony is the power source.

As usual, different writers, contradictory stories.

[greyhame]

Yes, I understand that - what I was wondering was: If, for some reason, a Time Lord's Tardis couldn't connect to the Prime Eye of Harmony (and hasn't been able to create/install his own), is there any other way of powering a Tardis - without having to use a rift?

[misterharry]

I can think of a couple of examples that indicate that it's possible:

In Inferno, the Third Doctor tapped into the nuclear power station to transport himself and the TARDIS console to the parallel Earth.

In Doomsday, the Tenth Doctor resorted to burning up a sun just to enable the TARDIS to transmit a projection of himself to say goodbye to Rose in Pete's World.

So it would seem to be possible. But it wasn't easy in either case and required an enormous amount of energy to achieve limited success.

[greyhame]

Thanks

[misterharry]

You're welcome. It occurs to me that, in both of those cases, there were specific difficulties the Doctor faced - his TARDIS being inoperable due to his exile in Inferno, and the closing of the gaps between universes in Doomsday. In more normal circumstances, it would presumably be much easier for a Time Lord to be able to harness an external power source for their TARDIS.

[Stormcrow]

The problem is that the Eye of Harmony is supposed to be the Time Lords' breakthrough technology, which enabled the creation of time travel. If you can just throw something together, the Time Lords become just another high-technology race. And special contraptions made by the Doctor are just that: special. They are necessitated by the plot of the story, not to be constrained by the previous world-building. That means that whatever the writer (or GM) says is an alternate power source is one. You can make up any technobabble you want, just like the writers did for their one-off situations.

[senko]

I see it a bit differently myself and it all works together for me in regards to the show. What I have is . . .

1) Omega creates the "Eye of Harmony" a suppermassive star something even bigger than this www.solarsystemquick.com/universe/r136a1.htm

2) The creation of this power source allowed them to travel in time which is stated in the books as having "created the time vortex" it didn't exist prior to their first trip and afterwards it existed for other races to achieve time travel more easily because they're not creating something new they're tapping into what someone else made.

3) The time lords set up the Eye of harmony on gallifrey with some mysterious super alien tech wireless projection technology that powered everything including multiple tardis's. To do so they put a copy of the eye in the TARDIS linking it back to home and providing it with the energy it needed.

However this was still a link go to far and you lose power because you have that link cut. Think of them as substations in our world they don't generate the power they just switch it from high to low voltage and perform other important functions to conver the energy put out by the true eye of harmony into something a TARDIS can use.

4) Then Gallifrey is time locked and the generation system is lost meaning the doctor has to find way's to power it directly. We see his experimenting with these way's and the issues involved in them.

Recharging off rift energy
Only available in specific locations limiting his recharge choices especially as he has to avoid crossing his own time stream, leaves impact on the place involved (perception filter), needs to be done fairly often going by his dialogue.

Draining the energy from a supernova
Again limited in scope as he has to go to the supernova to do this, may have other impacts on time as the supernova is now not as bright or have as large an impact as it would without him draining it.

Running off the background energy of the universe itself.
We don't know much about this beyond when the TARDIS wound up shunted to another dimension it went instantly and completely dead something that didn't happen previously when he went to E-space. May also have been happening with house hence his need to delete rooms to power the trip back up to a still linked universe.

Mini eye of harmony
This seems like the best option its the equivilent of installing a small generator to power the TARDIS inside the TARDIS itself but it does require room for it to be installed that can be dangerous on entry.

Now the way I see it these show the progression of the doctor working on finding a way around his lose of Gallifrey as the power source for his TARDIS, a TARDIS that is herself both an experimental model with special features and an obsolete model with features that were removed from later models like the record of Rassilon. We know the Doctor has literally centures of adventures, experiences and tinkering offscreen that we never see. So to me this takes us to the following . . .

5) This is the first incarnation where the doctor just cobbles together something based on his experiences to run the TARDIS off the background energy of the universe. Seems like a stretch right afterall why would he have this and the eye of harmony. Its not though remember this is a man who has been stranded by his people before, who's been on the outs with them as a renegade. Its something he built at some point in his 900 years after his 2nd incarnation to make sure they can't ever again just strand him on a backwater planet. Maybe its even something that is a lingering remnant of his work for the CIA in times and areas where he might not have access too the eye of harmony.

Then he winds up in another dimension with Rose and Micky with the TARDIS dead. He's stranded, again and this time there is no getting away not until he recharges one lucky crystal. However this serves as a wakeup call he know's he gets shunted into other dimensions with regularity, he know's he goes to times where the background energy may not be available so he needs to find another way.

6) This brings us to his first attempt at converting his TARDIS to run off other power sources when he draws on a supernova to say goodbye to Rose for the first time. Its an evolution of existing technology he know's using nuclear power (inferno) to power the TARDIS's functions but its limited as outlined above.

7) At some point between his draining a star and Donna he refines and develops his technology allowing more storage of energy and easy refueling from certain points as demonstrated by how quick and casual his refuelling at the rift is and the fact his TARDIS this time remains working when he drops Rose and the meta-crisis doctor off in her dimension. He's no longer getting stranded in other dimensions because now his TARDIS has msasive banks of batteries to store the energy she needs till he's back and can refuel. Its still not quite right though he has to go to specific points to recharge and that could be a problem if he winds up somewhere he can't.

8) Which brings us to the final evolution he recreates the eye of harmony github.com/DarkholmeTenk/TardisModIssues/issues/152, sure its on a microscopic scale compared to the original one and it takes up room in his TARDIS being risky to pass by but he's finally done it. He now has a permanent fuel source to run his TARDIS in any situation required.

However this is neither quick nor easy to achieve. On the first hand the Doctor is not a normal PC or even timelord he's studied and learnt about the technology of thousands of races including ancient time lord tech that most will never even realize exists much less see. On the second hand he's flying a special TARDIS that in canon has features barely a dozen other TARDIS's ever had and is itself in possession of technology the timelords removed from later models because they felt they didn't need it. On the . . .. third paw? the Doctor has spent time working for the CIA which would give him access to restricted and rare time lord technology which may not be in the civilian models of a TARDIS. On the final paw even with all these advantages to progress from "running on the background energy of the universe" to "Eye of harmony inside" it takes him centuries of research and tinkering. Research and Tinkering on technology he can partially study (the no defunct link in his TARDIS) and know's works.

So yes while it is possible for another TARDIS to create an alternate power source he can use (universal energy waves, nuclear energy, rift energy) it is something that I would personally either require a character have some background to justify (experienced time lord trait), have some drawbacks and possibly require an adventure or two for them to set it up if they're going to rely on it.

[Catsmate]

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

1) Omega creates the "Eye of Harmony" a suppermassive star something even bigger than this www.solarsystemquick.com/universe/r136a1.htm

OK. The sheer amount of mass/energy involved would suggest to me he pulled some in from elsewhere, such as a different universe.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

2) The creation of this power source allowed them to travel in time which is stated in the books as having "created the time vortex" it didn't exist prior to their first trip and afterwards it existed for other races to achieve time travel more easily because they're not creating something new they're tapping into what someone else made.

I don't like this bit (what's the source?). Perhaps he made the Vortex accessible by altering it's proximity to the 'normal' universe?

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

3) The time lords set up the Eye of harmony on gallifrey with some mysterious super alien tech wireless projection technology that powered everything including multiple tardis's. To do so they put a copy of the eye in the TARDIS linking it back to home and providing it with the energy it needed.

A smaller singularity perhaps? Existing both in the pocket universe of each TARDIS and in the Vortex to act as an energy conduit.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

However this was still a link go too far and you lose power because you have that link cut. Think of them as substations in our world they don't generate the power they just switch it from high to low voltage and perform other important functions to convert the energy put out by the true eye of harmony into something a TARDIS can use.

This could well have been deliberate. The Time Lords might not want pertain places and periods being investigated...

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

4) Then Gallifrey is time locked and the generation system is lost meaning the doctor has to find way's to power it directly. We see his experimenting with these way's and the issues involved in them.

Makes sense.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

Recharging off rift energy
Only available in specific locations limiting his recharge choices especially as he has to avoid crossing his own time stream, leaves impact on the place involved (perception filter), needs to be done fairly often going by his dialogue.

Possibly the energy of temporal rifts and similar phenomena is more useful, 'purer' in some way? Richer in usable chronons?
Though of course such dangerous meddling with the quantum framework of reality (and alterations to ambient Charon levels) can have unpleasant effects, such as:

• Attracting other time machines.
  
• Creating a temporary, crossable, rift linking the site to another weak point in some time. This could range from radio/video/data connections from the past/future/alternatives¹ to people wandering through². Even meeting yourself or selves from  different periods or alternatives
  
• Loss of time; did it really take three hours to get home through the park?
  
• Prophetic dreams and visions.
• Visible ghost-like phenonema
• Weird light effects or electrical discharges
  

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

Draining the energy from a supernova
Again limited in scope as he has to go to the supernova to do this, may have other impacts on time as the supernova is now not as bright or have as large an impact as it would without him draining it.

I suspect certain renegades will have little problem with arranging a suitable supernova, though it's likely to be tricky.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

Running off the background energy of the universe itself.
We don't know much about this beyond when the TARDIS wound up shunted to another dimension it went instantly and completely dead something that didn't happen previously when he went to E-space. May also have been happening with house hence his need to delete rooms to power the trip back up to a still linked universe.

Possibly there was a difference at the quantum level of the universe and this needed to be compensated for?

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

Mini eye of harmony
This seems like the best option its the equivilent of installing a small generator to power the TARDIS inside the TARDIS itself but it does require room for it to be installed that can be dangerous on entry.

Instead of a mere receiver  install a generator? Sounds like a good idea; Missy did this in Lords and Maters.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

Now the way I see it these show the progression of the doctor working on finding a way around his lose of Gallifrey as the power source for his TARDIS, a TARDIS that is herself both an experimental model with special features and an obsolete model with features that were removed from later models like the record of Rassilon. We know the Doctor has literally centures of adventures, experiences and tinkering offscreen that we never see. So to me this takes us to the following . . .

The War Doctor may have made some modifications, or added special equipment during the Time War? Perhaps to avoid Dalek jamming of the link?

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

5) This is the first incarnation where the doctor just cobbles together something based on his experiences to run the TARDIS off the background energy of the universe. Seems like a stretch right afterall why would he have this and the eye of harmony. Its not though remember this is a man who has been stranded by his people before, who's been on the outs with them as a renegade. Its something he built at some point in his 900 years after his 2nd incarnation to make sure they can't ever again just strand him on a backwater planet. Maybe its even something that is a lingering remnant of his work for the CIA in times and areas where he might not have access too the eye of harmony.

Plausible.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

Then he winds up in another dimension with Rose and Micky with the TARDIS dead. He's stranded, again and this time there is no getting away not until he recharges one lucky crystal. However this serves as a wakeup call he know's he gets shunted into other dimensions with regularity, he know's he goes to times where the background energy may not be available so he needs to find another way.

OK. Though the Doctor said:
    The TARDIS draws it's power from the universe, but it's the wrong universe. It's like diesel in a petrol engine.
and
    When the Time Lords kept their eye on everything, you could hop between realities, home in time for tea. Then they died, and
    took it all with them. The walls of reality closed, the worlds were sealed.
suggesting to me that one of the effects of the Time War was to alter reality and the relationships between the universes and teh Vortex.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

6) This brings us to his first attempt at converting his TARDIS to run off other power sources when he draws on a supernova to say goodbye to Rose for the first time. Its an evolution of existing technology he know's using nuclear power (inferno) to power the TARDIS's functions but its limited as outlined above.

OK. Though Inferno only move the console and the Doctor, not even the rest of the hut.
Perhaps the supernova wasn't being used as an energy source but as a weakpoint in reality?

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

7) At some point between his draining a star and Donna he refines and develops his technology allowing more storage of energy and easy refueling from certain points as demonstrated by how quick and casual his refuelling at the rift is and the fact his TARDIS this time remains working when he drops Rose and the meta-crisis doctor off in her dimension. He's no longer getting stranded in other dimensions because now his TARDIS has msasive banks of batteries to store the energy she needs till he's back and can refuel. Its still not quite right though he has to go to specific points to recharge and that could be a problem if he winds up somewhere he can't.

This suggests to me that the rift energy was more useful, and more storable.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

8) Which brings us to the final evolution he recreates the eye of harmony github.com/DarkholmeTenk/TardisModIssues/issues/152, sure its on a microscopic scale compared to the original one and it takes up room in his TARDIS being risky to pass by but he's finally done it. He now has a permanent fuel source to run his TARDIS in any situation required.

Plausible.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

However this is neither quick nor easy to achieve. On the first hand the Doctor is not a normal PC or even timelord he's studied and learnt about the technology of thousands of races including ancient time lord tech that most will never even realize exists much less see. On the second hand he's flying a special TARDIS that in canon has features barely a dozen other TARDIS's ever had and is itself in possession of technology the timelords removed from later models because they felt they didn't need it. On the . . .. third paw? the Doctor has spent time working for the CIA which would give him access to restricted and rare time lord technology which may not be in the civilian models of a TARDIS. On the final paw even with all these advantages to progress from "running on the background energy of the universe" to "Eye of harmony inside" it takes him centuries of research and tinkering. Research and Tinkering on technology he can partially study (the no defunct link in his TARDIS) and know's works.

OK.

Dec 29, 2019 4:44:13 GMT senko said:

So yes while it is possible for another TARDIS to create an alternate power source he can use (universal energy waves, nuclear energy, rift energy) it is something that I would personally either require a character have some background to justify (experienced time lord trait), have some drawbacks and possibly require an adventure or two for them to set it up if they're going to rely on it.

Maybe he's captured a micro-sale black hole, or other singularity



Footnotes.
1. Such a a park where KBRW from twenty minutes ago is clearly receivable.
2. Which can be used to justify many Fortean phenonema. I have an idea about a shopping arcade subject to this effect in my General Notes file for the future.

[senko]

Ok taking your comments in order.

1) Possibly its been fairly consistent he made the first black hole as part of the eye of harmony but the star never gets mentioned.

2) Sorry I can't give you a source its something that's stuck in my head from one of the novels (pretty sure it wasn't a tv episode) so I guess treat it as non-canon unless I can dig it up next week when I've some time to rummage randomly through things.

3) I'm pretty sure it was deliberate they time locked Galifrey's past and installed warnings about approaching the big bang + the doctor say's even they don't travel to the end of the universe.

4) All valid possibilities, and interesting plothooks.

5) Particularly with Gallifrey gone but still not really the best ongoing power source.

6) And since the TARDIS is dead you can't tune it to the current reality.

7) Thank you.

8) Also possible.

9) Again thank you (Yes I'm just posting this to keep the responses lining up).

10) Could be, though I got the feeling it was more the timelords bassically kept the wound open so the energy from the eye of Gallifrey could funnel through and with them gone the wounds were closing . . . hmmm perhaps House slipped through one of these wounds which is why he was aware of the timelords.

11) I don't get that impression from his dialogue as it implies he's using it to supercharge the tardis (his version of Nitro) but I suppose it could be possible.

12) Makes sense.

13) Thank you.

14) Thank you.

15) Could be a way for someone less skilled with Stellar mechanics to pull it off.

16) Or the one in our town where whenever I drive through the main strip between buildings I get the weird to anyone litening get in touch with the time council . . . broadcast I've mentioned elsewhere just repeating over and over. Still don't know what that's about.

[Catsmate]

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

Ok taking your comments in order.

1) Possibly its been fairly consistent he made the first black hole as part of the eye of harmony but the star never gets mentioned.

Wasn't it mentioned in one of the EU novels?
Maybe the initial detonation (or were there earlier experiments? The Doctor referred to an earlier Remote Stellar Manipulator) was used to punch a hole in reality to start the time travel programme.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

2) Sorry I can't give you a source its something that's stuck in my head from one of the novels (pretty sure it wasn't a tv episode) so I guess treat it as non-canon unless I can dig it up next week when I've some time to rummage randomly through things.

OK, it does sound like an EU reference.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

3) I'm pretty sure it was deliberate they time locked Galifrey's past and installed warnings about approaching the big bang + the doctor say's even they don't travel to the end of the universe.

Which is interesting in itself. What are they hiding? The true history of Gallifrey perhaps?

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

4) All valid possibilities, and interesting plothooks.

Oh yes, and for other renegades and non-Gallifreyans who've acquired Time Lord technology.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

5) Particularly with Gallifrey gone but still not really the best ongoing power source.

Indeed, lots of possibilities for breakdowns.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

6) And since the TARDIS is dead you can't tune it to the current reality.

Plausible.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

7) Thank you.

OK.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

8) Also possible.

Indeed.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

9) Again thank you (Yes I'm just posting this to keep the responses lining up).

Yeah, the quote function is a bit cumbersome. I just edit the code manually.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

10) Could be, though I got the feeling it was more the timelords bassically kept the wound open so the energy from the eye of Gallifrey could funnel through and with them gone the wounds were closing . . . hmmm perhaps House slipped through one of these wounds which is why he was aware of the timelords.

I like this.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

11) I don't get that impression from his dialogue as it implies he's using it to supercharge the tardis (his version of Nitro) but I suppose it could be possible.

OK.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

12) Makes sense.

OK.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

13) Thank you.

OK.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

14) Thank you.

OK.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

15) Could be a way for someone less skilled with Stellar mechanics to pull it off.

Indeed.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

16) Or the one in our town where whenever I drive through the main strip between buildings I get the weird to anyone litening get in touch with the time council . . . broadcast I've mentioned elsewhere just repeating over and over. Still don't know what that's about.

The vagaries of radio.

[misterharry]

Dec 29, 2019 15:49:45 GMT Catsmate said:

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

Ok taking your comments in order.

1) Possibly its been fairly consistent he made the first black hole as part of the eye of harmony but the star never gets mentioned.

Wasn't it mentioned in one of the EU novels?
Maybe the initial detonation (or were there earlier experiments? The Doctor referred to an earlier Remote Stellar Manipulator) was used to punch a hole in reality to start the time travel programme.

It was first established in Alan Moore's trilogy of back-up comic-strips for DWM (and subsequently referred to in various other spin-offs, either directly or more obliquely) that Omega created the first power source for Rassilon's time travel experiments by detonating the star Qqaba. The detonation caused Qqaba to go supernova and then collapse into the singularity in which Omega became trapped. According to Marnal's excellent website Rassilon, Omega and That Other Guy, its power was equivalent to one thousand suns - though I'm unsure of the original source for this.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

2) Sorry I can't give you a source its something that's stuck in my head from one of the novels (pretty sure it wasn't a tv episode) so I guess treat it as non-canon unless I can dig it up next week when I've some time to rummage randomly through things.

OK, it does sound like an EU reference.

I don't think the Time Lords created the Vortex, but I could be wrong.

Dec 29, 2019 14:25:38 GMT senko said:

3) I'm pretty sure it was deliberate they time locked Galifrey's past and installed warnings about approaching the big bang + the doctor say's even they don't travel to the end of the universe.

Which is interesting in itself. What are they hiding? The true history of Gallifrey perhaps?

I would think they wouldn't want to risk changing their own history or even negating themselves.