Martian Questions

[olegrand]

Hello everybody !

I'm calling on to all you DW scholars & gurus for some clarifications about the planet Mars and its native inhabitants the Ice Warriors. I have documented myself on the subject but there does seem to be a few conflicting, missing or unclear pieces of information (which is, of course, perfectly normal, considering how the development of the DW continuity).

All the info quoted in this post comes from the DW wiki :

tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Doctor_Who_Wiki

I'm especially interested in the times where Ice Warriors were not really "Ice Warriors" but a peaceful race of "native martians".

It seems that "thousands of years ago, the Martian civilization was noted as being a peaceful people who were not warriors but artisans who hunted for food but never experienced war amongst their own kind or other races. In this era, their world was a thriving planet with the native sentient species thriving for 12,000 years in peace. Though they preferred the cold, one settlement was built in the equator but its construction of the shelled shaped buildings allowed for a cooler climate and there were waterways which kept the populace fulfilled. Their sense of honour stretched back from this time as their civilization was based on a gift economy where things were given freely and receivers gave something back in return. It was a world of craftsmen, builders and farmers which built wondrous pyramids on their home planet."

For the sake of clarity, let's call this era "ildyllic Mars". If I've understood correctly, it was the discovery of a segment of the Key to Time (by the Doctor) on this idyllic Mars that caused cataclysmic climate changes which eventually caused the collapse of this civilisation and its transformation into the warrior culture of the Ice Warriors. Apparently, this transition occurred quite quickly - in 60 years or so.

Am I correct here or have I misunderstood something ?

I'm a bit baffled because other stories seem to suggest that the Ice Warriors already existed in their "warrior culture" stage "millions years ago"...

Anyway, if our peaceful native Martians mentioned above were indeed the ancestors of the Ice Warriors, am I correct in thinking that they looked like reptilian humanoids but did not wear the Ice Warriors' shell-like armor (or any form of armor since they seemed to be a completely pacifist culture) ?

Another thing about which I'm really not sure : during this "idyllic Mars" era, could humans from Earth had survived on Mars (without any special equipment that is) ?

Lastly, the Ice Warriors seem to have worshipped the Osirians (from the Pyramids of Sutekh story) but WHEN they came into contact with them is a bit unclear. Had the Martians already transformed into Ice Warriors at that time ? The answer seems to be no, since the pre-IW native Martians seem to have built pyramids - which could only have been inspired by the Osirians. Apparently, the Osirians came to Mars circa 5000 BCE so what would be the "time frame" (in Earth terms) of the "idyllic Mars" period ? Another thing which seems a bit odd is the idea that the "idyllic Martians" had absolutely no knowledge of war and only got to it after the climatic and social collapse of their world - which, according to the Key 2 Time story, had nothing to do with the Osirians... but how could a culture worship beings as the Osirians without having any concept of warfare (or conquest) ?

Any lights on those subjects ? ;D

[misterharry]

Hmm, not sure I have any definite answers here. But if I'm remembering correctly, the Key 2 Time series from Big Finish didn't specify how far back in history they are set. I may be fogetting a key piece of dialogue here, but so far as I recall, it could be set thousands of years ago, as the Wiki entry suggests, or it could be much much earlier. If the latter, then it would be prior to any other warlike Ice Warrior society on ancient Mars that we've seen (such as in the Radio Times 8th Doctor comic strips).

According to the Key 2 Time story The Judgement of Isskar, the Martians in this idyllic phase already had armour. There's a sequence in which the Doctor helps some Martians injured in an Earthquake, one of whose armour is cracked open. The implication is that the armour is actually a natural shell, not artificial. Being an audio story, we don't have an visual clues as to whether this armour is the same as the later Ice Warrior armour. I think the picture on the CD cover shows an Ice Lord type head, with helmet as per Slaar or Izlyr.

As to whether humans could survive on idyllic Mars, from the story I'd say yes. Certainly the Doctor didn't have any problems either with the air or the temperature. More to the point, neither did Harmonious 14 Zink, who came from a (future) human colony.

Finally, the Osirian angle - I'm a bit rusty on this. Doesn't it come mainly from Craig Hinton's novel GodEngine? Given the likely Key 2 Time timescales, I'd say the Orisians visited Mars way after the Martians became the Ice Warriors. I'd suggest that pyramid-like structures are a fairly general style that crops up in many cultures - even on Earth, we see them in South America as well Egypt. So I think you could write it off as coincidence.

By the way, I've got a rough Ice Warrior timeline worked out - I can't see the usual buttons to attach it to this post, so PM me with your email address if you'd like a copy.

[Curufea]

The second Faction Paradox radio series by Magic Bullet covers the imprisoning of Sutekh on Mars. However no date is mentioned. I'll have to listen to it again as I'm not sure if there were inhabitants on Mars or not at the time.

The Judgement of Sutekh:
www.kaldorcity.com/audios/faction/judgment.html

[misterharry]

Magic Bullet's Faction Paradox series has the inhabitants of Mars being an insect race, somewhat similar to the Martians from Quatermass and the Pit - possibly intentionally. I don't think any dates are given.

Lance Parkin's excellent Ahistory only states "By 5000 BC, the highly advanced Osirian race had influenced the cultures of many planets, including Earth, Mars, ..." (or that's what it says in my edition - it may be different in others).

[Curufea]

Well, there's no reason Mars couldn't have multiple sentient races and civilisations - Earth had the Silurians after all.

[olegrand]

Aug 7, 2010 23:42:11 GMT Curufea said:

Well, there's no reason Mars couldn't have multiple sentient races and civilisations - Earth had the Silurians after all.

Indeed. I think it's the direction I'll take - after all, in more than 12,000 years, a lot of things can happen (including the rise and fall of entire civilisations). Incidentally, the fact that Ice Warriors are called Ice Warriors rather than "Martians" could also imply the existence of other native martian populations...

[jennysfan]

...Who, if peaciful, could have easily been exterminated by a more militant race.

[da professor]

Or militarised to defend themselves against the aggressive race.