Which Law Of Time Can I use To Prevent... (Solved)

[Little Blue Box]

..a time traveller who arrives too late to save someone from death, from getting back in their TARDIS and appearing a few minutes earlier (before the death)?

I've thought up a scenario that hinges on the travellers arriving just too late, and despite reading through the Timey-Wimey chapter, can't determine a good reason to stop them doing the above.

Is there a rule I can use or am i at the whim of the players in this instance?

[allivingstone]

The Law of Time is pretty much just a version of the Observer Effect - you can't change something once it has become part of your own personal timeline.
If anyone tries, I refer you to the 9th Doctor episode Father's Day for inspiration on discouraging the idea. A Time Lord will know how bad an idea it could be.

[Little Blue Box]

So, if i'm correct, the fact that they have become aware that he has died means they cannot change it?

[Corone]

You're actually breaking quite a few laws.

The first is that you create a paradox.
If the person had not died you would not have returned in time to stop it. But if you don't the guy will die.
This might provoke a time spur but the paradox is quite minor.

As the event is part of your timeline, returning to change an outcome invokes the blinovich limitation effect, making it a lot harder to make a change.

Your next problem is that having saved the guy, can you get the hell out of there before you turn up for the first time to meet him. If you leave too early, how do you know something else won't kill him after you leave?

It all depends how far you go back, a few minutes won't give you much time to figure out how and why he died, and even if you know how it happened you haven't got long to fix it. Go back too far and you start really messing with events that might shape your own timeline.

What the characters can do is try to meet the person earlier and discover what they need to know without changing time.
They might not want to mention they know the person is going to die though "I'm so sorry..."

Basically there is little to physically stop them doing many things to do with time. The laws of time simply give the GM a big stick to beat them with called 'consequences' if they do.

Hope that helps!

[Null and Void]

Going back to change establish facts, even something as small is still now a historical event. The question of this came up in Day of the Daleks, regarding preventing the Daleks from invading the Earth... the Doctor said it couldn't be done because of 'The Blinovitch Limitation Effect' but never went on to explain it. Basically, The Blinovitch Limitation Effect can be used to justify any of those sort of things.

Also, see the Episode 'Father's Day' to see what happens when they actually *prevent* the murder.

[Little Blue Box]

Thankyou to both! I had initially thought The Blinovitch Limitation Effect (hadn't realised it was from Day Of The Daleks!) and the Paradox sections might be relevant but couldn't find a way to apply it to the situation. You've both made it much clearer for me and allowed me to write up my Who-Dunnit scenario without fear.

I'm going to give you both Karma (if i'm allowed) as thanks for helping me out.

EDIT: Oh, it seems I'm not. I'll have to owe you Karma Null And Void!

[Rel Fexive]

This does (or could) mean problems with the observer effect and paradox. But it also reminds me of something from the Rolemaster supplement "TimeMaster" - I only read it for the excellent time travel cosmology.

The concept is called "saving face" - the idea that you can go back and alter elements of an event to keep the apparent outcome the same while changing the true outcome by some clever interventions.

The classic example is as follows: the heroes are chasing an escaping villain. One of the party is ahead of the others and his friends see their comrade chase the villain around a corner - at which point there is a huge explosion! The others arrive at the scene and find their quarry has vanished and their friend has died and become Mr Crispy. Sadness ensues.

Some time later, in another time period, the team come to possess a fast-growth cloning lab. So they get their dead friend's DNA and whip up a mindless clone of him, age it to the right age, dress it up right, and head back to that fateful day.

With a few minutes spare to see what happened to cause the explosion (the villain activated a trip mine as he went around the corner) the team stands ready... and as their friend comes into view they grab him and throw the body at the mine before teleporting out.

End result - their friend never died, it was his clone. But history remains (apparently) unchanged, there is no paradox, and since they had not seen just how their friend died the observer effect does not apply. Nice!

[Null and Void]

Jan 30, 2010 1:27:58 GMT Rel Fexive said:

This does (or could) mean problems with the observer effect and paradox. But it also reminds me of something from the Rolemaster supplement "TimeMaster" - I only read it for the excellent time travel cosmology.

The concept is called "saving face" - the idea that you can go back and alter elements of an event to keep the apparent outcome the same while changing the true outcome by some clever interventions.

The classic example is as follows: the heroes are chasing an escaping villain. One of the party is ahead of the others and his friends see their comrade chase the villain around a corner - at which point there is a huge explosion! The others arrive at the scene and find their quarry has vanished and their friend has died and become Mr Crispy. Sadness ensues.

Some time later, in another time period, the team come to possess a fast-growth cloning lab. So they get their dead friend's DNA and whip up a mindless clone of him, age it to the right age, dress it up right, and head back to that fateful day.

With a few minutes spare to see what happened to cause the explosion (the villain activated a trip mine as he went around the corner) the team stands ready... and as their friend comes into view they grab him and throw the body at the mine before teleporting out.

End result - their friend never died, it was his clone. But history remains (apparently) unchanged, there is no paradox, and since they had not seen just how their friend died the observer effect does not apply. Nice!

I thought Rolemaster's time travel supplement was called 'Time Riders' and Pacesetters time travel RPG was called 'Timemasters'?

Either, by the way, are good sources for time travel tricks and traps. I really liked Time Riders, but then, I was in general a fan of Rolemaster and Spacemaster...

[Curufea]

I really liked their Dark Space setting.

[Rel Fexive]

Jan 30, 2010 1:37:26 GMT Null and Void said:

I thought Rolemaster's time travel supplement was called 'Time Riders' and Pacesetters time travel RPG was called 'Timemasters'?

It's been a decade since I last read it. You could be right.

*goes and looks*

Yep, Time Riders. I figured that since everything else Rolermaster-y was *Master it would be too.