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Post by JohnK on Jan 22, 2010 15:51:34 GMT
Hullo, Null and Void, Just had to comment on this bit from your thread on The New Lords of Time... I actually find the Daleks rather boring, and would rather find something more interesting to have them face. The Cybermen are much more appealing, especially from an archaeological standpoint. Not only do I intend to have an archaeological scenario that involves cybermen, One of the characters, Nathan, is from a point in Earth history that has seen a couple cyber wars already. I find this statement particularly interesting, to be honest. While I can't say that I find the Daleks boring, I can't say that I've really enjoyed any of the Dalek stories since "Genesis" with the exception of the Eccleston story "Dalek". Part of it, for me anyway, is the fact that since Davros's introduction, the Dalek stories have always involved Davros in some fashion or other. The focus has gone away from the Daleks, onto Davros, and I have to wonder if this was what Terry Nation intended when he wrote "Genesis". "Destiny" was an interesting story, only because of the Movellans, and I groaned when I realised that the Daleks were after Davros. Then again, I've been annoyed by the whole Time War thing, and how the Daleks don't seem to have been destroyed by it at all. *Le Sigh* Also, because the Daleks have been over-used and abused in the series to some extent, at least since the Eccleston period, I don't plan to use them in my game - at least not for a while, and not until I can come up with a good plot to make use of them. Now, the Cybemen, on the other hand, are a species that I've always loved in Doctor Who, and I remember being seriously creeped out by both "The Tenth Planet" (mixed with the shock and surprise of the Doctor's regeneration into Troughton) and "The Tombs of the Cybermen". The Mondas origin version are far superior to the current version. They will definitely be making an appearance in my game, and I love the idea of using the early Cybermen (with the sing-song voices) and the later Cybermen in two different scenarios. |
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Post by Null and Void on Jan 22, 2010 16:23:20 GMT
I agree that Davros has come to overshadow the Daleks, and his necessary inclusion into their mythos has become a little too complete. It was the one misstep, I think, in Rememberance of the Daleks, to include him in at the last minute. Spoiled the end of an otherwise fun romp. Since my game is set post-Time War, I thought I should at least throw them into one adventure... which I did, but as an obstacle rather than a main threat. That being done, I can wipe my hands of them.  As for Cybermen, I just don't think they've been well explored. Their most recent appearances have been as 'generic' monsters. I'm most familiar with them from the time of the Fourth Doctor on, because by the time I got to the Troughton and HArtnell ones, most of them had been lost, so I can't really make a good comparison. I HAVE gone back and watched Tomb of the Cybermen and The Invasion, but I recently found reconstructions of Tenth Planet, The Moonbase, and The Wheel in Space that I plan on watching when I have time. I think the Hartnell Cybermen certainly have a creepy factor that isn't quite present in the later versions. I think in part, for me, it was because the hands were still human. The sing-song voice was a bit hard for me to listen to at first. To couch it in horror terms, they were less like zombies, and more like mummies. Oh, and since you are a fan of the Mondasian cybermen, I recommend an audio from Big Finish to you. Spare Parts. Its a story involving the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa landing on Mondas just prior to the introduction of the cybermen. Its quite good, actually, and features the same sing-song voices. Very creepy and atmospheric. |
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Post by allivingstone on Jan 22, 2010 16:36:21 GMT
As for Cybermen, I just don't think they've been well explored. Their most recent appearances have been as 'generic' monsters. I'm most familiar with them from the time of the Fourth Doctor on, because by the time I got to the Troughton and HArtnell ones, most of them had been lost, so I can't really make a good comparison. I HAVE gone back and watched Tomb of the Cybermen and The Invasion, but I recently found reconstructions of Tenth Planet, The Moonbase, and The Wheel in Space that I plan on watching when I have time. I think the Hartnell Cybermen certainly have a creepy factor that isn't quite present in the later versions. I think in part, for me, it was because the hands were still human. The sing-song voice was a bit hard for me to listen to at first. To couch it in horror terms, they were less like zombies, and more like mummies. I think the cybermen were at their best (i.e. most distinctive) in the Troughton era. Pertwee never faced them (until the 'Best Massacre Ever' in The Five Doctors), and Tom Baker only encountered them once (in a less than brilliant story). After that, we're into the era of John Nathan Turner and Eric Seward. All of a sudden cybermen were no longer emotionless horrors manipulating and conquering from behind the scenes, but stormtrooper-type cannon fodder. Here's hoping the Moff gives us real cybermen again. |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 22, 2010 21:29:11 GMT
Hullo, Null and Void, I agree that Davros has come to overshadow the Daleks, and his necessary inclusion into their mythos has become a little too complete. It was the one misstep, I think, in Rememberance of the Daleks, to include him in at the last minute. Spoiled the end of an otherwise fun romp. Overshadowed is an understatement, mate. You're right about "Remembrance of the Daleks". He really didn't need to be included in that one at all. Since my game is set post-Time War, I thought I should at least throw them into one adventure... which I did, but as an obstacle rather than a main threat. That being done, I can wipe my hands of them. My feelings exactly. The problem for me, being simply that I want to create a plot and storyline involving them that has...impact. Both for my players, and for me. As for Cybermen, I just don't think they've been well explored. Their most recent appearances have been as 'generic' monsters. I'm most familiar with them from the time of the Fourth Doctor on, because by the time I got to the Troughton and HArtnell ones, most of them had been lost, so I can't really make a good comparison. I HAVE gone back and watched Tomb of the Cybermen and The Invasion, but I recently found reconstructions of Tenth Planet, The Moonbase, and The Wheel in Space that I plan on watching when I have time. I never liked the Cyberman appearances from the Davison period on, as they always came across as stormtrooper-like in their style and feel, and we're not going to talk about the Cyber-King. :< They haven't really been dealt with well, and the Troughton stories was their "period of excellence" as far as I'm concerned. The only thing the Tom Baker story got right was the appearance of the Cybermats, which we need to stat up, 'cause no golden age Cyberman story can be told without the appearance of Cybermats. ;D I think the Hartnell Cybermen certainly have a creepy factor that isn't quite present in the later versions. I think in part, for me, it was because the hands were still human. The sing-song voice was a bit hard for me to listen to at first. To couch it in horror terms, they were less like zombies, and more like mummies. I'd forgotten about the business with the hands for the Hartnell story ones, and you're right about the mummies business. Ewww!! Brrr!!! Oh, and since you are a fan of the Mondasian cybermen, I recommend an audio from Big Finish to you. Spare Parts. Its a story involving the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa landing on Mondas just prior to the introduction of the cybermen. Its quite good, actually, and features the same sing-song voices. Very creepy and atmospheric. |
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Post by Null and Void on Jan 22, 2010 21:49:16 GMT
There seems to be very little that hasn't already been done with the Daleks... as the horrible horrible Daleks in Manhatten showed. I think that if they are going to show up in an adventure, it has to be something BIG. But something that is big enough is complex and intimidating.
And honestly, its sometimes easier to use a different race altogether. The same story as has already been seen, but just spun slightly differently with new players works wonders.
Now, all that said, one of my earliest adventures is a classic cyberman one, that you'll all have to wait for. Its going to be third in my campaign.
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Post by Kit on Jan 23, 2010 10:20:10 GMT
I love the classic Cybermen and want them back. I'll definitely use them. BTW, can someone tell me the story in which the gold weakness first was introduced? i dont recall it in Tomb of the Cybermen or Invasion.
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Post by Curufea on Jan 23, 2010 10:55:55 GMT
I think it was a Peter Davison episode.
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Post by Rel Fexive on Jan 23, 2010 11:13:53 GMT
It started with Revenge Of The Cybermen, a 4Doctor story. The one with the planet of gold, oddly enough.
I do think more can be done with the Cybermen (the original ones) than the Daleks, if only because they don't want to destroy the universe and everyone in it - they want to convert everyone instead. And presumably, kill those they can't convert. That's just more interesting.
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Post by JohnK on Jan 23, 2010 15:20:14 GMT
Hullo, Null and Void, There seems to be very little that hasn't already been done with the Daleks... as the horrible horrible Daleks in Manhatten showed. I think that if they are going to show up in an adventure, it has to be something BIG. But something that is big enough is complex and intimidating. And honestly, its sometimes easier to use a different race altogether. The same story as has already been seen, but just spun slightly differently with new players works wonders. That's the real key to writing an adventure using Daleks in DW: AiTaS (or any other DW game for that matter). "Daleks in Manhattan" just showed how poor a Dalek story can be, and how they need to be used in creative ways that have something *big* going on, as you say. Just one of the reasons I'm holding off on them for the campaign (although I will be running a Dalek-y scenario at CanGames this year in May. Now, all that said, one of my earliest adventures is a classic cyberman one, that you'll all have to wait for. Its going to be third in my campaign. Awww, crap, now you've got me both interested and extremely curious!! Hope you'll do a write-up on the scenario seed at some point. Would love to see it. Meanwhile, I'm plotting out my second and third scenarios for the campaign. Last night, the Friday group continued their game, and I will post up the sessions soon as I get time and finish doing up the Steven Taylor write-up. |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 23, 2010 15:44:54 GMT
Hullo, Kit, I love the classic Cybermen and want them back. I'll definitely use them. BTW, can someone tell me the story in which the gold weakness first was introduced? i dont recall it in Tomb of the Cybermen or Invasion. The story in question is "Revenge of the Cybermen", the last tale from Tom Baker's first season as the Doctor. There were some interesting elements to the story, but Baker's bad pun near the end of the story ruined it for me, not that a lot of folks consider it a good tale at all. |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 23, 2010 15:48:34 GMT
Hullo, Rel Fexive, It started with Revenge Of The Cybermen, a 4Doctor story. The one with the planet of gold, oddly enough. I do think more can be done with the Cybermen (the original ones) than the Daleks, if only because they don't want to destroy the universe and everyone in it - they want to convert everyone instead. And presumably, kill those they can't convert. That's just more interesting. That's the problem, though. In Classic Who, the Daleks did not want to destroy the universe, they wanted to conquer it and have it all their own. That seemed to change after the first Davros story, although admittedly the Daleks were relegated to second-string players as the focus of the stories afterwards was on Davros. The New Who has taken the Daleks in a completely different direction it seems, and it will be interesting to see if Steve Moffat changes their direction again. The Cybermen, well...I prefer the Classic Who tales where the Cybermen work from behind the scenes. And they were natives of Mondas, not created by some human. But that's just my personal preference. |
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Post by Rel Fexive on Jan 23, 2010 17:23:12 GMT
"Daleks in Manhattan" just showed how poor a Dalek story can be, and how they need to be used in creative ways that have something *big* going on, as you say. Just one of the reasons I'm holding off on them for the campaign (although I will be running a Dalek-y scenario at CanGames this year in May. From reading the big book on the old series' it's surprising how many dodgy Dalek episodes there were back then, too. Hullo, Rel Fexive, It started with Revenge Of The Cybermen, a 4Doctor story. The one with the planet of gold, oddly enough. I do think more can be done with the Cybermen (the original ones) than the Daleks, if only because they don't want to destroy the universe and everyone in it - they want to convert everyone instead. And presumably, kill those they can't convert. That's just more interesting. That's the problem, though. In Classic Who, the Daleks did not want to destroy the universe, they wanted to conquer it and have it all their own. That seemed to change after the first Davros story, although admittedly the Daleks were relegated to second-string players as the focus of the stories afterwards was on Davros. The New Who has taken the Daleks in a completely different direction it seems, and it will be interesting to see if Steve Moffat changes their direction again. The Cybermen, well...I prefer the Classic Who tales where the Cybermen work from behind the scenes. And they were natives of Mondas, not created by some human. But that's just my personal preference. Yeah, the "DESTRUCTION. OF REALITY. ITSELF!!1!1!" thing is a very recent Dalek mindset, though it is really just a Davros mindset. Ole Davvy has been hankering after universal genocide for years. Before he reappeared this time the Daleks just wanted to conquer everyone/where, like in ye olden times. I don't like the new/alternate Cybermen. They're not very interesting, and their "DELETE!" battlecry is the pale imitation of "EXTERMINATE!" that it clearly is. And they can't keep coming back from parallel worlds/the void indefinitely! Bring back the old guys! |
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Post by Kit on Jan 23, 2010 19:45:44 GMT
Hullo, Kit, I love the classic Cybermen and want them back. I'll definitely use them. BTW, can someone tell me the story in which the gold weakness first was introduced? i dont recall it in Tomb of the Cybermen or Invasion. The story in question is "Revenge of the Cybermen", the last tale from Tom Baker's first season as the Doctor. There were some interesting elements to the story, but Baker's bad pun near the end of the story ruined it for me, not that a lot of folks consider it a good tale at all. Thanks. I thought it was that story. I've always hated that development. Hm. This brings up another question. in 'Battlefield', the Brig had gold bullets in case of Cybermen. Did the Brig ever encounter Cybermen with the gold weakness? It wasnt evident in INVASION which is the only Brig story i recall with Cybermen. |
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Post by Null and Void on Jan 23, 2010 20:00:37 GMT
Hullo, Kit, The story in question is "Revenge of the Cybermen", the last tale from Tom Baker's first season as the Doctor. There were some interesting elements to the story, but Baker's bad pun near the end of the story ruined it for me, not that a lot of folks consider it a good tale at all. Thanks. I thought it was that story. I've always hated that development. Hm. This brings up another question. in 'Battlefield', the Brig had gold bullets in case of Cybermen. Did the Brig ever encounter Cybermen with the gold weakness? It wasnt evident in INVASION which is the only Brig story i recall with Cybermen. The gold weakness was peculiarly misinterpreted after Revenge of the Cybermen. In the original story, the weakness was due to gold DUST that clogged their respirator units. For some reason, after that, gold became something of a silver bullet, so that any introduction of the metal into their systems became fatal. This become Adric's broken badge, the brigadier's gold tipped bullets, and even gold headed arrows. The brigadier himself never encountered Cybermen with that weakness. Personally, I think that gold shouldn't be a weakness unless its for late model cybermen, and even then, I'd keep the weakness the same as its original intention... |
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Post by Rel Fexive on Jan 23, 2010 20:28:46 GMT
Adric's badge was rubbed against a breather unit so I'd guess that one was still about the dust. The others, yeah, not so much.
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Post by Kit on Jan 23, 2010 20:39:00 GMT
Thanks. I'm for keeping it for late era Cybermen and the original intent-or dropping it entirely.
I guess the Brig and UNIT could have learned of the weakness from Sarah Jane.
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Post by allivingstone on Jan 23, 2010 20:48:06 GMT
Personally, I like to think that all that golden arrow nonsense got phased out of reality as a consequence of the Time War.
I'd also like to think that UNIT having golden bullets is simply the application of the Brig's military mind to the problem of cybermen. Upon hearing that the cybermen are vulnerable to gold, he orders the development of a weapon based around it.
It's just unfortunate that we never get to see the story in which bullets fail to have the desired effect, yet again. ;D
Maybe there's an adventure in that...
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Post by JohnK on Jan 23, 2010 22:36:13 GMT
Hullo, Rel Fexive, From reading the big book on the old series' it's surprising how many dodgy Dalek episodes there were back then, too. Frankly, not to the extent there have been since "Genesis". The view of the Daleks by production teams back in the Hartnell, Troughton, and Pertwee days was different than it's been of late, methinks. I have a fondness for a lot of the older Dalek serials, as you may have guessed. Yeah, the "DESTRUCTION. OF REALITY. ITSELF!!1!1!" thing is a very recent Dalek mindset, though it is really just a Davros mindset. Ole Davvy has been hankering after universal genocide for years. Before he reappeared this time the Daleks just wanted to conquer everyone/where, like in ye olden times. The Davros in "Genesis" was not out for universal genocide, and perhaps that's where later Davros appearances in the Classic Who were mistakes that led to the current thinking. The Daleks had it right back then - conquest of the universe was the way to go, not destroying it. I don't like the new/alternate Cybermen. They're not very interesting, and their "DELETE!" battlecry is the pale imitation of "EXTERMINATE!" that it clearly is. And they can't keep coming back from parallel worlds/the void indefinitely! Bring back the old guys! While I like the Classic Cybermen too, I have to wonder how the Powers That Be would bring back the older version of Cybermen given the place that New Cybermen have in it. Perhaps Moffat will surprise us all at some point with this, eh? |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 23, 2010 22:39:35 GMT
Hullo, Kit, Hullo, Kit, The story in question is "Revenge of the Cybermen", the last tale from Tom Baker's first season as the Doctor. There were some interesting elements to the story, but Baker's bad pun near the end of the story ruined it for me, not that a lot of folks consider it a good tale at all. Thanks. I thought it was that story. I've always hated that development. The gold development? I never thought of it as a big deal, because in a couple of the Troughton stories, the chest port on the Cybermen were jammed with stuff, and the gold dust in "Revenge" seemed like a logical extension. Hm. This brings up another question. in 'Battlefield', the Brig had gold bullets in case of Cybermen. Did the Brig ever encounter Cybermen with the gold weakness? It wasnt evident in INVASION which is the only Brig story i recall with Cybermen. Nope, the Brigadier never encountered this type of Cybermen at all. Sad but true, since you would think that gold bullets wouldn't be effective unless they were fired at the chest units anyway... |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 23, 2010 22:43:25 GMT
Hullo, Null and Void, <snippage> Personally, I think that gold shouldn't be a weakness unless its for late model cybermen, and even then, I'd keep the weakness the same as its original intention... I heartily agree with this, and if I ever do a Classic Cybermen write-up (Mk IV or V, methinks), they'll have the weakness to gold dust, not to gold bullets and the like. Clogging the chest unit is one of the best ways to beat a Cyberman, providing one can get close enough, of course. |
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Post by allivingstone on Jan 23, 2010 23:07:16 GMT
While I like the Classic Cybermen too, I have to wonder how the Powers That Be would bring back the older version of Cybermen given the place that New Cybermen have in it. Perhaps Moffat will surprise us all at some point with this, eh? Thankfully, IIRC, RTD never stated that 'proper' Cybermen didn't exist in the NuWhoniverse. From Doomsday - Dalek Thay: Identify yourself! Cybermen: You will identify first! Dalek Thay: State your designation! Cybermen: You will identify first! Dalek Thay: IDENTIFY! Mickey Smith: It's like Stephen Hawking meets the speaking clock. Cybermen: That is illogical. You will modify. Dalek Thay: Daleks do not take orders. Cybermen: You have been identified as Daleks. Dalek Sec: Outline resembles the inferior species known as Cybermen! The above is taken from IMDB. There's also the cyberman's head in the Van Statten Museum, of course. Hopefully they will indeed return under the Moff. |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 23, 2010 23:29:09 GMT
Hullo, Al,
I had completely forgotten (if I even remembered ;D ) that bit from "Doomsday". There is hope yet, I guess, and if anyone may get the job right this time with them, it would be Steven Moffat. Still adore the work he did on Coupling (the UK version, not the American one).
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Post by kaemaril on Jan 23, 2010 23:36:35 GMT
Hullo, Al, I had completely forgotten (if I even remembered ;D ) that bit from "Doomsday". There is hope yet, I guess, and if anyone may get the job right this time with them, it would be Steven Moffat. Still adore the work he did on Coupling (the UK version, not the American one). It would be interesting to see how the Grand Moff would introduce and differentiate 'our' cybermen from 'Pete's World' cybermen without confusing the kiddies ... My guess is he won't bother, and we're unlikely to see 'our' cybermen anytime soon - if ever. |
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Post by Craig Oxbrow on Jan 23, 2010 23:56:48 GMT
Personally I'd count them all as part of the toybox. Daleks are there for the "oh no!" factor, an implied threat which could also be brought onscreen if you have a "rampaging army" idea, or a "mad scientist" one for that matter. I thought Daleks In Manhattan was highly average, so there you go.
I have a Cybermen idea (which doesn't reference any of their origins) which I might use, and a sorta-low-key Dalek idea which is definitely on my "production" schedule, with special guest redesigned Movellans as well.
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Post by Rel Fexive on Jan 24, 2010 0:24:41 GMT
The Davros in "Genesis" was not out for universal genocide, and perhaps that's where later Davros appearances in the Classic Who were mistakes that led to the current thinking. The Daleks had it right back then - conquest of the universe was the way to go, not destroying it. Well there was that scene where the Doctor asked Davvy (I just like calling him that  if he would release a terrible disease into the world, one that could kill all other forms of life, if he had one in his possession. Davros got totally drool-y about the idea, said he'd do it in a heartbeat for the feeling of power, power over life and death, that doing so would give him. "That power would set me up above the gods. And through the Daleks I shall have that power!" So yeah, nutter. |
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Post by zebaroth on Jan 24, 2010 2:53:55 GMT
I prefer the daleks to cybermen but yes they overused them in the new show
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Post by Curufea on Jan 24, 2010 5:56:58 GMT
I've always found it dubious that gold can clog a respirator in a race of beings that doesn't need to breath and can wander around on the moon.
A Cyberman would require very little oxygen at all, only needing to sustain the brain with it.
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Post by JohnK on Jan 24, 2010 13:40:12 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, Hullo, Al, I had completely forgotten (if I even remembered ;D ) that bit from "Doomsday". There is hope yet, I guess, and if anyone may get the job right this time with them, it would be Steven Moffat. Still adore the work he did on Coupling (the UK version, not the American one). It would be interesting to see how the Grand Moff would introduce and differentiate 'our' cybermen from 'Pete's World' cybermen without confusing the kiddies ... My guess is he won't bother, and we're unlikely to see 'our' cybermen anytime soon - if ever. That is my fear as well, and from a producer's point of view, that would be understandable as well. He's got to build on top of what RTD did, in addition to moving forward and all that. One of the reasons I suspect that the Daleks will be New Who Daleks, not the "real" Daleks of Classic Who. *Le Sigh* |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 24, 2010 13:43:18 GMT
Hullo, Rel Fexive, The Davros in "Genesis" was not out for universal genocide, and perhaps that's where later Davros appearances in the Classic Who were mistakes that led to the current thinking. The Daleks had it right back then - conquest of the universe was the way to go, not destroying it. Well there was that scene where the Doctor asked Davvy (I just like calling him that if he would release a terrible disease into the world, one that could kill all other forms of life, if he had one in his possession. Davros got totally drool-y about the idea, said he'd do it in a heartbeat for the feeling of power, power over life and death, that doing so would give him. "That power would set me up above the gods. And through the Daleks I shall have that power!" So yeah, nutter. Oh, there's no doubt that Davros was absolutely nuts and insane. What he went through, judging from his appearance alone, would almost guarantee that. The thing is that both he and Daleks seek power, but what kind of power do you have if you destroy everything? There's nothing to have power in or have power over when it's all gone. But that's just part of his barm-iness. |
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Post by kaemaril on Jan 24, 2010 14:08:08 GMT
One of the reasons I suspect that the Daleks will be New Who Daleks, not the "real" Daleks of Classic Who. *Le Sigh* Don't give up hope, amigo. Remember the last Dalek we saw was grey |
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if he would release a terrible disease into the world, one that could kill all other forms of life, if he had one in his possession. Davros got totally drool-y about the idea, said he'd do it in a heartbeat for the feeling of power, power over life and death, that doing so would give him. "That power would set me up above the gods. And through the Daleks I shall have that power!"