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Post by BadCatMan on Jan 9, 2010 8:11:28 GMT
I think we're all familiar with the issues that that the Doctor Who universe has, with regards to canon and continuity and some messed-up timelines. So, I was wondering how other GMs have handled issues of canonicity and continuity. TV only, or books, audios and comics? Have you removed an event from history, or a story you didn't like? Or added something in? Have you solved the UNIT dating conundrum? In my PbP game, I've posted a thread to state what I think is canon and clarify continuity issues. I'll add to it as things come up. I've declared all things canon - books, comics, audios, even the tv series, and stated the rough bounds of my knowledge. I've had a lot of fun doing research and throwing in references from all over the place. Some of it may go over the heads of the less obsessive (like all of my players!), but I think it makes good background flavour, and I can surprise them with the obscure and unexpected. I've changed UNIT back to the United Nations, blue berets and all, and painted them as being much friendlier, to humans and aliens, than in the new series. I used the Virgin novels dating solution (at or around transmission), though none of its really come up. There is a UNIT character though. And a Silurian NPC who's a member (a borrowing from the NAs). Not being impressed with The End Of Time, I had Christmas 09 come and go without a single hassle. Mainly this was so the UNIT PC would get to go out on a simple mission while everyone more important was on holiday. Inexplicably, given new series events, she's unaware of the existence of aliens (and a low-low-ranking member of UNIT). This outbreak of things not happening will eventually become a plot point.  I've decided that Gallifrey Mean Time is no longer in effect, due to a broken TARDIS dumped outside time, so PCs could theoretically go back before the Time War (and even prevent it?). I did this to allow for classic Gallifrey stories, and for pre-War Time Lord PCs, though the one I got was post-War. I'm also expanding on the Fall Of Arcadia, as I write a prologue there that will detail the events that bring all the PCs together. I started with the planet in the NA Deceit (not that I liked it much, but eh), and placed a sort of Time Lord MASH and TARDIS repair centre in the system. The Daleks launched a brutal surprise attack, only because the Doctor was there. |
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Post by Eryx on Jan 9, 2010 10:18:59 GMT
I accept the novels and the audios as canon material.
My games will be set in classic era Who (around the time of the 5th Doctor) so I don't have to worry about the whole Gallifrey/Time War thing.
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Post by Siskoid on Jan 9, 2010 14:07:00 GMT
I'm also taking the books and audios as canon EXCEPT WHERE I WILL STEAL THEIR PLOTS. Just like they did in Human Nature, I might have something that originally happened to the Doctor happen to another Time Lord.
My own campaign will start post-Time War, perhaps using the year the Doctor and Rose lost as the reason the two TARDISes never cross paths.
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Post by Null and Void on Jan 9, 2010 14:08:20 GMT
For my case, I'm going with Lance Parkin's AHistory as far as what I'm considering history. Mostly though, I will ignore the comics because I've not read them. However, my own theory on UNIT dating is that the dates given onscreen are ALL correct, depite the bizarre discrepencies. You see, in a world where time travel is possible, linear time becomes irrelevant. It suddenly becomes more about the 'big picture'. Time becomes a crazy quilt of stitched together pieces... each one not matching the others. Or, for a weirder and more fun take, imagine that Time is in some degree 'alive' (perhas in the same way a TARDIS is), and it will actively work to heal damage to it... Time is a Frankenstein's monster.  This makes UNIT dating a lot easier, so you CAN have the Brigadier retire three years before UNIT is formed. Or, you can just say Mawdryn Undead featured Ian Chesterton instrad of the Brig, as that was what was intended originally, except William Russell couldn't appear so it was rewritten. |
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Post by ravencrowking on Jan 9, 2010 14:29:13 GMT
This makes UNIT dating a lot easier, so you CAN have the Brigadier retire three years before UNIT is formed. I would argue that (1) The formation of UNIT follows the Yeti in the underground in the 60s. (2) The Brig is originally in UNIT at least until 1980 (when Sarah Jane Smith is "from"). (3) The involvement of the Guardians in Mawdryn Undead changes the timeline, so that the Brig is no longer involved in the Kraal Invasion, although the original events are remembered by the Doctor and Sarah Jane Smith. No other changes in dates are needed. RC |
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Post by ravencrowking on Jan 9, 2010 14:35:32 GMT
Basically, I would argue that the Whoniverse has a few important timelines (i.e., events change time in a number of critical stories):
1. The Original Timeline: All events from An Unearthly Child to Mawdryn Undead follow this timeline.
2. Guardian Altered Timeline: Mawdryn Undead to the Ravalox Affair.
3. Post-Ravalox, Pre-Time War: Exactly what it sounds like.
4. Time War: Largely unknown, with facts and history shifting again and again and again.
5. Post Time War Original: All events from Rose to Journey's End.
6. Post Davros Timeline: All events from Journey's End to present.
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Post by JohnK on Jan 9, 2010 15:39:40 GMT
Hullo, BadCatMan, Oooh, what a big can of worms you have popped open here! In terms of continuity, I tend to treat the series itself as being canon, obviously. I pretty much feel that in a universe or whatever one wants to call the Doctor Who series "world", where time is what it is, it's not linear, and therefore inconsistencies can and do occur. Time is self-healing (or requires additional help from those like the Doctor for really big events and the like), so the series continuity or seeming lack thereof, is fine with me. As for what I consider to be canon, I've not read any of the novels or comics (the latter since early DWM and stuff), but I have the 2nd edition of AGuide. Haven't really decided how much of books and comics continuity to use and all. Far as I'm concerned, the only stuff that is truly canon is what's been on our tv screens since 1963. My own campaign(s) are set in the Classic Who period, towards the end of the Tom Baker Doctor and into the Peter Davison Doctor period. I didn't want to set the game in the post-Time War period for sure, and I can't remember the events of a lot of Sylverster McCoy's period (haven't seen a lot of his DVD stuff) or the late Colin Baker, so I didn't want to go there. |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 9, 2010 15:53:25 GMT
Hullo, Null and Void, <snippage> Or, you can just say Mawdryn Undead featured Ian Chesterton instrad of the Brig, as that was what was intended originally, except William Russell couldn't appear so it was rewritten. Yeah, I was really sad when I originally learned that it was Ian, and not the Brigadier, who was going to appear in that story. Never could figure out how the Brigadier went into the teaching thing. But he definitely would have made a good Headmaster down the road. |
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Post by allenshock on Jan 9, 2010 16:25:33 GMT
I stick to only those televised events as being "canon" for my game as I have not read most of the books...in truth, the "canon" really does not impinge on my game all that much since the vast majority of characters from the TV show other than monsters will not be appearing.
Allen
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Post by JohnK on Jan 9, 2010 17:52:51 GMT
Hullo, Allen, I stick to only those televised events as being "canon" for my game as I have not read most of the books...in truth, the "canon" really does not impinge on my game all that much since the vast majority of characters from the TV show other than monsters will not be appearing. This is likeliest the best approach to take when running DW: AiTaS, to be honest, since there is so much additional material out there. Good, common sense approach, mate. Deserves a point of karma. |
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Post by Kit on Jan 9, 2010 19:52:14 GMT
or the late Colin Baker, so I didn't want to go there. The late Colin Baker? |
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Post by Null and Void on Jan 9, 2010 20:03:18 GMT
or the late Colin Baker, so I didn't want to go there. The late Colin Baker? later or late era, I think he means. Mr. Baker is still with us. |
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Post by Kit on Jan 9, 2010 20:23:56 GMT
later or late era, I think he means. Mr. Baker is still with us. Indeed he is. He also seems a very nice chap in person. |
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Post by Curufea on Jan 9, 2010 20:59:17 GMT
TV, books and audio. And when they conflict, it's the Faction's fault.
Although I've only read about 3-4 DW books, I tend to go with other people's compilations of the universe based on all the books I've not read.
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Post by BadCatMan on Jan 10, 2010 0:48:14 GMT
Hullo, BadCatMan, Oooh, what a big can of worms you have popped open here! I thought we could share rather than argue.  So far, so good. I began playing and DMing in the Forgotten Realms setting for D&D, a famously detailed setting with a clearly defined canon, though one in which players and DMs are encouraged to use as much or as little as they like, and add or remove as they please (whatever its detractors might say). So DMs would take the plot-hooks take them in different directions, and I had enormous fun in collaborative development efforts on lesser-known lands. There was however a fair bit of friction whenever the canonical novels decided to trash things. (Then they all but killed off the setting and the fandom collapsed, and this coincided with a renewed interest in DW, and here I am.) So it struck me that Doctor Who, with its undefined canon and loose continuity, could really suit an RPG setting, where many aspects are broad brush-strokes and DIY development. (I think my fannish tastes just suit an RPG-type of fandom.) So, um, yeah. Carry on. |
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Post by Craig Oxbrow on Jan 10, 2010 1:08:25 GMT
No canon for me, I'm trying to cut back...
If I were to actually start drawing lines, I'd say "what was on the BBC". So that's the TV series, the occasional audio plays that got to BBC Radio, and at a stretch the annual Doctor Who Storybooks as written by the new series' writers. And maybe the Eighth Doctor comic strips that were in the Radio Times.
But since the TV series alone includes three different versions of Atlantis for one example, I'll probably count the new series as recent history and go with "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" if anyone questions a change made to anything else.
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rsaintjohn
2nd Incarnation
The Threefold Man
Posts: 77
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Post by rsaintjohn on Jan 10, 2010 1:23:35 GMT
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Post by BadCatMan on Jan 10, 2010 1:41:06 GMT
Shush.  In this context, it means "what I'm using for my game." |
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Post by Null and Void on Jan 10, 2010 2:05:27 GMT
Shush. In this context, it means "what I'm using for my game." Which, in my opinion, is all the term 'canon' should be used for. |
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Post by giftedmunchkin on Jan 10, 2010 7:22:38 GMT
Only using the New Series, because that's what my player knows, and it's what I'm comfortable with. I'll probably steal lots of stuff from the Old Series, though, courtesy of the TARDIS Wiki. Most useful resource ever. Besides this forum, of course . |
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solas
2nd Incarnation
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Post by solas on Jan 10, 2010 7:41:29 GMT
I'm in a good situation with players having grown up with the series (we're all in Australia, and the ABC carried the entire run of Doctor Who out here and still does, which I like a lot) and also liking the current series. I'm going with the Post-Time War setting because I think it offers up a lot more freedom without the Time Lords sitting there like a sword of Damocles to be used on the players if they get out of hand. I think the consequences to their actions is more than enough. That being said, I'm also using the prior continuity because I personally don't see any disconnect between the two. The Sontarans are doing what they always did, they just got better prosthetics. The Daleks do what they do, they just got CGI. The End of Time opened up a lot of possibilities really and as an interested player friend of mine said: 'You know, as long as Gallifrey was around, wouldn't other Time Lords make a run for it? Or the Daleks?' And I have to admit, I didn't see anything about the time lock preventing that. The Doctor, The Master, Dalek Caan and even Davros and a whole metric ton of Daleks got out of the Time War, so I believe the precedent has well and truly been set to reference the Time War and even undo it should my campaign head in that direction. I have vague plans to reference some of the earlier regenerations of the Doctor for a storyline, so using those eras wouldn't bother me a bit. And it'll hopefully prompt me to ask some hard questions about the future, such as how to address the more militant nature of UNIT, where Sarah Jane is going in her role as self-appointed 'protector of the Earth' and what future, if any, Torchwood has. S. |
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Post by Curufea on Jan 10, 2010 9:42:47 GMT
Shush. In this context, it means "what I'm using for my game." Which, in my opinion, is all the term 'canon' should be used for. It is a bit like "What do you regard as canon material for the adventures of Baron Munchausen?" |
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Post by ravencrowking on Jan 10, 2010 14:32:09 GMT
But since the TV series alone includes three different versions of Atlantis for one example This is how I resolve it: There is a 2nd Doctor story in the Azores which is identified as taking place in a modern-day Atlantis. (The Underwater Menace) There is a 3rd Doctor story where ancient Atlantis is destroyed. (The Time Monster). Azal the Daemon says "Remember Atlantis" in The Daemons (3rd Doctor). That last does not, in my book, count as a seperate Atlantis. So, IMHO, the "three Atlantises" is a myth. Rather, Azal is warning the Doctor that meddling with powerful forces can wreak great destruction, which is exactly what we saw in The Time Monster. The first two Atlantises are widely varied in time; it has been suggested that the first is composed of survivors of the second....or even better, a surviving colony of Atlantis that was founded prior to Atlantis sinking. After all, the Azores colony still has access to the surface world. This makes a great deal of sense to me. YMMV. RC |
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Post by Curufea on Jan 10, 2010 22:36:15 GMT
Another inconsistency though is the fire of London. I believe that at least two Doctors reference it?
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Post by JohnK on Jan 11, 2010 4:39:17 GMT
Hullo, Kit, or the late Colin Baker, so I didn't want to go there. The late Colin Baker? Oops, mistake, there. I meant "late" as in previous actor in the role and all that. Yes, late era. Far as I know, Colin Baker is very much alive. |
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Post by JohnK on Jan 11, 2010 4:42:16 GMT
Hullo, BadCatMan, Hullo, BadCatMan, Oooh, what a big can of worms you have popped open here! I thought we could share rather than argue. So far, so good. Yep. When it comes down to it, any discussion about what is and is not canon for a roleplaying game or series is all about subjectivity. As you said, so far, it's been all sharing and no arguing. So all's good. |
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Post by The Porter on Jan 12, 2010 1:21:50 GMT
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Post by Null and Void on Jan 12, 2010 1:29:57 GMT
Its interesting, but all in all, I'm not interested in the canonicity of Doctor Who itself, merely my own game. Its simply a personal choice on my part, since I can't have read or seen everything ever related to the show. Canonicity, for me, in this matter, is a simple matter of not contradicting myself. Anything else goes, if it makes for a good game. |
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Post by Curufea on Jan 12, 2010 2:14:18 GMT
Its interesting, but all in all, I'm not interested in the canonicity of Doctor Who itself, merely my own game. Its simply a personal choice on my part, since I can't have read or seen everything ever related to the show. Canonicity, for me, in this matter, is a simple matter of not contradicting myself. Anything else goes, if it makes for a good game. Right with you there. The only thing I'm worried about - is because it has happened before- is players pulling me up on a lack of continuity within my own campaign. |
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Post by BadCatMan on Jan 12, 2010 4:10:44 GMT
Personally, I find notions of "personal canon" are really only useful if you plan on doing something with it - like RPGs. Or fanfic.
Okay, less about canon, that wasn't really what I wanted to discuss. Have any GMs here made outright alterations or additions to the setting? Like, say, Quarks don't exist or Harriet Jones is still PM?
I'm thinking of bringing back the Meddling Monk (named Mortimus in the NAs). He operated as a bit of a free agent during the Time War, and has now regenerated - still a monk, but as an Asian Buddhist monk of the trickster archetype, and now on a mission to restore the timelines (or at least change them to something else, leading to why no-one notices all the alien invasions) and undo the Time War altogether. And this is where the PCs come in...
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So far, so good.
In this context, it means "what I'm using for my game." 
