How many players is too many players?

[kaemaril]

I'm currently running a game of Mutants & Masterminds at my local game club (due to end soon, so I can hopefully get some Who going on ...)

When I put out a request for players I said that, ideally, I'd like 3 or 4 players.

I ended up with ten.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how well the game has been going. I never thought I'd be able to run a game with that many players. At least, not without going mad

Anyway, I'm offering Doctor Who and 3-4 players seems like a reasonable number for the classic 'Timelord and companions' style game I plan on running.

I just somehow can't see a timelord and nine companions working, so I thought I'd ask ...

For the style of game you are running (or plan on running) what do you consider the optimal number of players?

[Eryx]

Regardless of whatever game I am running I cap it at 5 players (though I have 6 in my current Call of Cthulhu campaign) because after that I find the game breaks down.

[kaemaril]

Jan 7, 2010 12:52:47 GMT Eryx said:

Regardless of whatever game I am running I cap it at 5 players (though I have 6 in my current Call of Cthulhu campaign) because after that I find the game breaks down.

That doesn't answer my question, though

I always thought about six was my limit as well, but I've been surprised how well I've been dealing with 10 (and came perilously close to eleven last session )

But even though I think I could probably manage 10 players in a DW game it just wouldn't 'feel right' for the campaign style ...

[Siskoid]

Here's the scheme I'm using to handle over-interest (which, really, is a great problem to have!)

1 Time Lord
2 (max 3) companions
These are players who have little or no scheduling problems, dependable and regular players.

1-2 guest characters native to whatever location/era your scenario takes place in
These are prefab characters you hand out to "guest" players (though if you have time, the chargen process is quick enough that the player might still be involved - you tell him the setting in advance, etc.)
Guest characters are separated into 2 categories: Fixed (may not join the crew at the end of the story, like Dickens or Shakespeare, or indeed, any character that might be unbalanced point-wise) and Joiner (if the guest likes the character and would like to play in the next session, it may join the crew temporarily, perhaps even permanently depending on how many characters are in the TARDIS at the time (example: Lynda with a Y, Mickey). Guest characters may return later if their setting is visited again.

Guest players are those that might not be able to come to every session, or perhaps aren't sure they want to commit to the campaign or to role-playing in general (great for recruiting new players). I try to establish a rolling roster of guests, sometimes it's your turn, sometimes it's someone else's.

I'll have a side-game featuring a later regeneration of the Time Lord played by another committed player, for when my main Time Lord player gets schedule problems, and these will all be one-offs, not a "season". Guests in one could be companions in the other, allowing for continuing (but sporadically used) original characters.

That's how I'm keeping everyone happy and satisfied­.

[Eternally Lost Zeppo]

With any game I run, I generally like to cap things off at 4 or 5 players. The problem with a game of up to ten players, I think - having played in one before - is the GM has to trust the players to organise themselves into two or three managable groups.

Or if the player characters decide to go off and do their own thing in smaller groups (or even going solo) the GM has to make sure everybody has something to be doing in the game, otherwise some people end up sitting around for a long period of time with nothing to do whatsoever.

That might just be a case of bad roleplaying or GMing though.

[Siskoid]

Well I would NEVER take on a group of more than 6 (and even 6 I think is stretching it). Most tables can take 6 people (GM included) comfortably anyway. Whenever I've had more, I've gone for games where I could use a rotating roster of players and characters. Or else a side-game where there are two groups, each playing every two weeks.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Kaemaril,

Hmm...good question!

From my own pov, the largest group of players that I am comfortable handling at most times in the gaming group is five, maybe six. At conventions, I've run games of six or seven players, but six is my usual maximum there.

In terms of specifics for a DW: AiTaS game, for a face-to-face group of DW: AiTaS, I would limit the group to no more than five or six players.

A campaign with a TARDIS should be limited to probably four players (a Time Lord and three companions), as too many players will spoil the cooking, and the Doctor Who format doesn't work well with larger groups of characters, as some of the stories over the years demonstrated only too well.

On the other hand, a campaign that is less traditional can handle up to five or six players, as my UNIT game on the Friday night group is going to do. Less traditional type games can handle more players, since they are more akin to standard gaming groups in format and style.

As for conventions, I'm planning to run DW: AiTaS at the local gaming convention here in Ottawa in May, and will limit the games to 5 players, as I don't think it would be suitable to have more in the convention games.

In terms of a Play By e-Mail (PBeM) game, I have found that I can handle up to ten player characters, since once the game gets well and truly underway, the players will be interacting with each other as much as with me. That said, this varies from game to game and other factors such as player commitment and the like, of course. Some are more comfortable with less than that, of course, but that's a personal decision for a Moderator.

Just my $0.02.

[lomythica]

I've not yet started a DWaiTaS campaign yet (still waiting and preparing), so I can't speak specifically to the size for a WHO campaign. However, In my experience, it all depends on the players you have, and how they behave.

If you have 10 people that all want the limelight, 10's WAY too much. But if you have 2 or three outgoing players and 6-7 quiet, wait for the battle people, you might be able to handle it.

Certainly, that doesn't account for the fact that WHOniverse is not necessarily a battle hardened gamer system (but there's always Torchwood and UNIT concepts that could be played).

For the most part, 4-6 works best for me, but I've ran 7-8 before. It's all about the right mix of players, how well you can run the necessary mechanics for a given number of people, and whether you want each character to be an iconic character with all getting even 'shine' time.

If you're running it at a game shop, then likely, you won't get to pick out people, so I would start with 4-5 as a limit. From there, you can allow the current players to recommend players if you're comfortable with that, then give the new player a single shot opportunity to test it out (both for you and them). In that case, you have to be able to be a hard nose if you don't think he/she is a good addition but he or she still wants to play.

Not sure if I helped any, but that's my thoughts.

[lomythica]

Oh, a bit I fogot...

One way to help things progress, is to get a GM assistant to help arbitrate rules, run NPCs, etc. It can be a good way to help you handle more players, and train up the next gen of GM.

Last year at Gencon, I attended a pretty cool D&D game where the DM had an assistant that helped answer questions, and played NPCs as well. There were 12 people playing. It went fairly smoothly.

I also got to watch a WHO GURPS game, that had a similar setup, and had 8-9 players. It also played pretty smoothly.

Of course, you can take into account that these were one shot convention games, but I thought they were worth mentioning.

[kaemaril]

Jan 7, 2010 16:24:09 GMT JohnK said:

In terms of specifics for a DW: AiTaS game, for a face-to-face group of DW: AiTaS, I would limit the group to no more than five or six players.

A campaign with a TARDIS should be limited to probably four players (a Time Lord and three companions), as too many players will spoil the cooking, and the Doctor Who format doesn't work well with larger groups of characters, as some of the stories over the years demonstrated only too well.

On the other hand, a campaign that is less traditional can handle up to five or six players, as my UNIT game on the Friday night group is going to do. Less traditional type games can handle more players, since they are more akin to standard gaming groups in format and style.

As for conventions, I'm planning to run DW: AiTaS at the local gaming convention here in Ottawa in May, and will limit the games to 5 players, as I don't think it would be suitable to have more in the convention games.

In terms of a Play By e-Mail (PBeM) game, I have found that I can handle up to ten player characters, since once the game gets well and truly underway, the players will be interacting with each other as much as with me. That said, this varies from game to game and other factors such as player commitment and the like, of course. Some are more comfortable with less than that, of course, but that's a personal decision for a Moderator.

Just my $0.02.

Thanks, John. That's just the sort of input I was after.

[Eryx]

Jan 7, 2010 13:21:32 GMT @kaemaril said:

Jan 7, 2010 12:52:47 GMT Eryx said:

Regardless of whatever game I am running I cap it at 5 players (though I have 6 in my current Call of Cthulhu campaign) because after that I find the game breaks down.

That doesn't answer my question, though

I always thought about six was my limit as well, but I've been surprised how well I've been dealing with 10 (and came perilously close to eleven last session )

But even though I think I could probably manage 10 players in a DW game it just wouldn't 'feel right' for the campaign style ...

Where Dr Who is concerned I am limiting it at 3. I havd 2 already (Time Lord and companion) and we'll see as we go along whether anyone else joins in.

[JohnK]

Hullo, Kaemaril,

Jan 7, 2010 23:18:56 GMT @kaemaril said:

Thanks, John. That's just the sort of input I was after.

That's what I figured, and why I posted it. Always willing to help out a friend in need.

[BadCatMan]

I have 5. I'm running each through small solo adventures until they meet up, however, since they're in different times and places.

I do play-by-post, which typically has a high attrition rate, so I allowed in a few more than I thought would be good. I haven't lost any in 2 weeks, but it's early still. Balancing the numbers is tricky in PbP: too many and things slow to a crawl while you wait for everyone to post and some may miss out, too few and things also slow to a crawl if some of the players fade away and leave it all on another (though a good small group can be nice and quick).

In general, I'd say 4 to 6 is a good sized group. DWAITAS can handle smaller however, and the DW concept suits small parties.

I realised I was approaching things wrong when I tried to have PCs fill roles like it was a D&D party, where the game is balanced to 4 PCs in each of the classic roles, and that this game simply doesn't need that, that PCs are allowed to, even meant to, fail at certain situations and try something different. (Though if one were to treat it the party role way, then talker, scientist, medic, sneak and defender is a handy set.)

[JohnK]

Hullo, BadCatMan,

Jan 8, 2010 9:52:14 GMT BadCatMan said:

I have 5. I'm running each through small solo adventures until they meet up, however, since they're in different times and places.

I have to ask how you're handling this... To be honest, I would have loved to do this with my Friday night group, but in keeping with the way episodes of Doctor Who are and were written, I didn't want to play individual game sessions with each player. While it could be done in a session where each player is literally on their own telling their own story, that would be difficult to keep interest up on all the players in say, a 5-player group. In PBeM, of course, that works differently. The other way to do this is to tell the individual player character stories in flashback, within the course of an episode, which is how I plan to handle it.

Jan 8, 2010 9:52:14 GMT BadCatMan said:

I do play-by-post, which typically has a high attrition rate, so I allowed in a few more than I thought would be good. I haven't lost any in 2 weeks, but it's early still. Balancing the numbers is tricky in PbP: too many and things slow to a crawl while you wait for everyone to post and some may miss out, too few and things also slow to a crawl if some of the players fade away and leave it all on another (though a good small group can be nice and quick).

I can't say that I've experienced this at all in my experience in PBeM games, but PbP games are different. Player attrition rates have been very low for me; the key to keeping players for PBeM and PbP games is to keep the game moving, and keep the players interested. No real secret to it, other than that. (And have a method of posting that actually facilitates the game, rather than gets in the way of it, of course.)

[zebaroth]

Someone In my old group told me that they played in a game that had 20 players
as for me I would allow 4to6 players in a game

[kaemaril]

Jan 8, 2010 22:29:55 GMT zebaroth said:

Someone In my old group told me that they played in a game that had 20 players
as for me I would allow 4to6 players in a game

But would that vary by what type of game you were running? If your group was a UNIT team, a Torchwood team etc would you allow more players than if it were a traditional 'Time Lord and a couple of companions' style game? Or is 4-6 a constant for you?

[BadCatMan]

Jan 8, 2010 15:28:01 GMT JohnK said:

I have to ask how you're handling this... To be honest, I would have loved to do this with my Friday night group, but in keeping with the way episodes of Doctor Who are and were written, I didn't want to play individual game sessions with each player. While it could be done in a session where each player is literally on their own telling their own story, that would be difficult to keep interest up on all the players in say, a 5-player group. In PBeM, of course, that works differently. The other way to do this is to tell the individual player character stories in flashback, within the course of an episode, which is how I plan to handle it.

It's the scenario I described it here, with my specific version at the end. Others posted their similar approaches. Basically, each PC comes across a fragment or aspect of a broken TARDIS, scattered across time and space. It could be a mysterious door or old cabinet, an artefact floating in space, or big thing floating in the Vortex/Void.
dwaitas.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=seeds&action=display&thread=340

I decided to make mini-adventures to bring each PC together by different means, since the idea of suddenly being thrust together by walking through a strange door or being whipped up by a time scoop, time storm or a rift and instantly meeting seemed a little hackneyed. There's also an element of trying out the new rules. It's been fun, though the five solo games have been a bit of chore, and I'm rushing a bit to get them together quickly.

I can't say that I've experienced this at all in my experience in PBeM games, but PbP games are different. Player attrition rates have been very low for me; the key to keeping players for PBeM and PbP games is to keep the game moving, and keep the players interested. No real secret to it, other than that. (And have a method of posting that actually facilitates the game, rather than gets in the way of it, of course.)

It's a huge problem where I game (RolePlay onLine: , where players and even GMs may vanish without a word quite frequently, usually early on, but some much later. A very good and reliable GM may reduce this, but not entirely. My D&D players spontaneously tell me I'm awesome, I've ran non-stop for up to 4 years now, and I still get some disappearances. My conclusion is that Real Life sucks.

[JohnK]

Hullo, BadCatMan,

Jan 9, 2010 0:54:42 GMT BadCatMan said:

Jan 8, 2010 15:28:01 GMT JohnK said:

I have to ask how you're handling this
<stuff snipped>

It's the scenario I described it here, with my specific version at the end. Others posted their similar approaches. Basically, each PC comes across a fragment or aspect of a broken TARDIS, scattered across time and space. It could be a mysterious door or old cabinet, an artefact floating in space, or big thing floating in the Vortex/Void.
dwaitas.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=seeds&action=display&thread=340

I decided to make mini-adventures to bring each PC together by different means, since the idea of suddenly being thrust together by walking through a strange door or being whipped up by a time scoop, time storm or a rift and instantly meeting seemed a little hackneyed. There's also an element of trying out the new rules. It's been fun, though the five solo games have been a bit of chore, and I'm rushing a bit to get them together quickly.

Oh, I knew about the adventure, but I was more curious about the individual mini-adventures. The way I've handled it with my gaming groups is that the first scenario/serial deals with bringing the characters together, to the best of my ability. If I can't do that with all the player characters, then the first couple of serials would handle that element of the starting group of characters. You'll be able to read about the adventures of the Friday night group here

dwaitas.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=campaigns&thread=477&page=1

and I may post about my Sunday group, if folks want to read about a smaller group of characters as well.

That said, tonight's opening adventure serial is going rather well, and the characters have all merged together rather nicely, I think. You guys will have to judge from the write-up that I'll post in the near future.

Jan 9, 2010 0:54:42 GMT BadCatMan said:

Jan 8, 2010 15:28:01 GMT JohnK said:

I can't say that I've experienced this at all in my experience in PBeM games, but PbP games are different. Player attrition rates have been very low for me; the key to keeping players for PBeM and PbP games is to keep the game moving, and keep the players interested. No real secret to it, other than that. (And have a method of posting that actually facilitates the game, rather than gets in the way of it, of course.)

It's a huge problem where I game (RolePlay onLine: , where players and even GMs may vanish without a word quite frequently, usually early on, but some much later. A very good and reliable GM may reduce this, but not entirely. My D&D players spontaneously tell me I'm awesome, I've ran non-stop for up to 4 years now, and I still get some disappearances. My conclusion is that Real Life sucks.

Real Life(tm) is part of it, but PbP is a different beast entirely than running a PBeM game. I very rarely play PbP, and tend to avoid rpol.net altogether. But different folks, different strokes, and all that.

[BadCatMan]

I'll tell the story of my mini-adventures back in my Broken Tardis thread, to avoid further off-topicness here.

[ugavine]

I think a Time Lord with two or three companions would be best, so that's three or four players. Luckily those are the number in my two groups, although at present I'll only be running Doctor Who with the group of three players.

[The Professor]

For TW6, I may be running up to 6, which is the max I allow. I've tried before with bigger groups and it didn't work well for me. But 6 may work well enough for a TW campaign. For a doctor/Companion game, I may consider less if I ever run one.

[Curufea]

Yeah - I'd not want to go abve 4 players myself, unless I do some metagaming and have players being the villains as well.

[PathfinderAP]

Jan 7, 2010 12:24:07 GMT @kaemaril said:

I'm currently running a game of Mutants & Masterminds at my local game club (due to end soon, so I can hopefully get some Who going on ...)

When I put out a request for players I said that, ideally, I'd like 3 or 4 players.

I ended up with ten.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how well the game has been going. I never thought I'd be able to run a game with that many players. At least, not without going mad

Anyway, I'm offering Doctor Who and 3-4 players seems like a reasonable number for the classic 'Timelord and companions' style game I plan on running.

I just somehow can't see a timelord and nine companions working, so I thought I'd ask ...

For the style of game you are running (or plan on running) what do you consider the optimal number of players?

Optimal including a Time Lord?, just one,

The less people involed the better, it makes it more easy to build tension and threats with less people, sure you could do it with ten, but for how long?,

I'd max out at say three and a Time Lord, anything more and you will need this to be an epic adventure to justify the larger numbers (and again how long can you keep that up?)

Best thing you can do is split this group up in to two teams,

This is not like MnM or CoC, larger teams are to be expected,
But DW you will get more fun with less people,

[JohnK]

Hullo, pathfinderap,

Jan 14, 2010 15:00:54 GMT PathfinderAP said:

Optimal including a Time Lord?, just one,

The less people involed the better, it makes it more easy to build tension and threats with less people, sure you could do it with ten, but for how long?,

I'd max out at say three and a Time Lord, anything more and you will need this to be an epic adventure to justify the larger numbers (and again how long can you keep that up?)

Best thing you can do is split this group up in to two teams,

This is not like MnM or CoC, larger teams are to be expected,
But DW you will get more fun with less people,

Going on the assumption that you've read the earlier posts in this thread...

While this game is not Mutants & Masterminds or Call of Cthulhu, I think that the number of players needs to be based on the type of campaign and all. Doing a game with a Time Lord and his or her companions would seem to necessitate a game with only three or four players. On the other hand, a game with a UNIT team or a Torchwood team or some other concept along those lines would be more friendly towards a team of five or six players. And it's also a function of what the GM and the players in question can handle. That's all I want to point out here.

[cliffr]

Looks like I'm going to end up with 8! for Project Bluebox. This could still work since it's Torchwood style, not Doctor and Companions. But it's still going to be tough.

[Curufea]

Can you break them into groups - have some of them working on plans, while others are off doing things? Otherwise you might end up with long wait times for players.

[Kit]

My bi-weekly BUFFY/ANGEL game has been going on for 4 years now ith 7-8 players plus me as GM. We've never had a problem with group size. For a Time Lord and companions, I'd probably want no more than 4 companions. But for ICMG or UNIT or Torchwood or Mr Copper Foundation, larger groups would work fine for me.

[JohnK]

Hullo, cliffr,

Jan 14, 2010 22:39:38 GMT cliffr said:

Looks like I'm going to end up with 8! for Project Bluebox. This could still work since it's Torchwood style, not Doctor and Companions. But it's still going to be tough.

That's a lot of players. The real danger, as far as I can see and based on my own experience, is that players will be short shifted in terms of their playing time, and it may be problematic coming up with stuff for all the players to do.

Let us know how this turn out, okay, please?

[cliffr]

Jan 15, 2010 15:36:55 GMT JohnK said:

Let us know how this turn out, okay, please?

Will do. We just did chargen last night. Had seven people there, with a possible eighth to come later. However circumstances may force a few out of the game in the coming months so maybe it is better to start with more now.

[JohnK]

Hullo, cliffr,

Jan 16, 2010 17:56:30 GMT cliffr said:

Jan 15, 2010 15:36:55 GMT JohnK said:

Let us know how this turn out, okay, please?

Will do. We just did chargen last night. Had seven people there, with a possible eighth to come later. However circumstances may force a few out of the game in the coming months so maybe it is better to start with more now.

So tell us about the character generation process and all that. How did it go? What type of characters did the players create? All the juicy details!