Questions about the Shoreditch Incident

[olegrand]

Hi everybody!

In your opinion, did the Shoreditch Incident (from Remembrance of the Daleks) cause civilian fatalities (i.e. were normal London people from 1963 killed by Daleks)?

I'm working on an adventure involving the little Girl from "Remembrance" - and the plot would work incredibly better if the child had been left an orphan after the events (i.e. with her two parents being killed by Daleks)...

I haven't rewatched the episodes yet but I plan to do so. In the meantime, would anyone remember a scene involving civilian casualties / fatalities (and not just people running away in fear)?

Thanks in advance!

[misterharry]

If I remember correctly, Gilmore receives instructions to arrange a staged evacuation of the area shortly after the junkyard scene in which the presence of the Daleks is first revealed. So there's limited opportunity for civilian deaths after that - other than those who are already allied or enslaved by the Daleks.

Up to that point though, it's open season - though I don't recall seeing or being told about any civilian deaths (other than the headmaster). I think Gilmore has to get some of his men to clear bystanders from the area of the junkyard, so there are possibilities up to then.

[Catsmate]

Dec 1, 2020 5:50:26 GMT olegrand said:

Hi everybody!

In your opinion, did the Shoreditch Incident (from Remembrance of the Daleks) cause civilian fatalities (i.e. were normal London people from 1963 killed by Daleks)?

I'm working on an adventure involving the little Girl from "Remembrance" - and the plot would work incredibly better if the child had been left an orphan after the events (i.e. with her two parents being killed by Daleks)...

I haven't rewatched the episodes yet but I plan to do so. In the meantime, would anyone remember a scene involving civilian casualties / fatalities (and not just people running away in fear)?

Thanks in advance!

Hmmmm, an interesting question, and one to which I don't think there's a definitive canonical, or deuterocanonical, answer.

In general the episode suggested the area had been evacuated and there are few people seen 'hanging around' (with the notable exception of John the cafe owner with whom the Doctor discussed sugar). So I'd say there were probably few civilians around (it was less than twenty years after 'the war' ended and the Cold War was pretty tense with the Kennedy Assassination, so it's likely that this could be accomplished without much trouble).

‘I have been in direct contact with High Command and they have agreed to a staged quiet withdrawal under the Peacetime Nuclear Accident Provisions. They felt that given the state of the current government...’
‘They felt, ... that the initial stages could be carried out under the aegis of the Intrusion Counter Measures
Team.
The D-notice committee has been informed and a cover story prepared.’

However I'd suggest that 'the girl' (Judith Winters or Caroline Grey depending on source) had probably been used by the Renegade Daleks for their Battle Computer for some time; even in '63 a young girl disappearing for days would be likely to attract attention so I'd suggest her parents or guardians were dead. Alternatively they could have been part of Ratcliffe's 'Association' and supplied by him to the Daleks; the members of the Association were exterminated so perhaps her parents died then? Or were killed by Ratcliffe earlier in the course of events.

Pure speculation of course. Hope it helps.

[olegrand]

Yes, it does help, thanks a lot to you two.

About the girl's identity, whatever her name is supposed to be, wasn't she supposed to be a Coal Hill student (i.e. a local)?

The link with the Association is an excellent idea! Perhaps her parents were members of the organisation who were disposed of by the Daleks (or by their "fellow" Associates?) once their daughter had been "chosen".

[Catsmate]

Dec 1, 2020 12:03:58 GMT olegrand said:

Yes, it does help, thanks a lot to you two.

Glad to help.

Dec 1, 2020 12:03:58 GMT olegrand said:

About the girl's identity, whatever her name is supposed to be, wasn't she supposed to be a Coal Hill student (i.e. a local)?

That is presumably so, certainly she's portrayed as a local, and I'd take it that she was a student there. She was wearing  (based on the gallery here) a school uniform when she was first seen, so I think it's reasonable to assume she attended Coal Hill.

‘What’s she staring at?’ demanded Ace, balefully staring at one of the many girls that clustered around the entrance to Coal Hill School.
Ace ...... continued to stare at the girl. Nobody outstares me, she thought, especially some twelve-year-old sprat in school uniform. The girl turned away.

The fact that the school was a base for the Imperial faction and she was (involuntarily) part of the Renegades does suggest that she may not have wanted to enter the school; perhaps the Imperials could detect her implants?

Dec 1, 2020 12:03:58 GMT olegrand said:

The link with the Association is an excellent idea! Perhaps her parents were members of the organisation who were disposed of by the Daleks (or by their "fellow" Associates?) once their daughter had been "chosen".

To my mind it seems likely that Radcliffe knew about her and perhaps supplied her to the Renegade faction. Hence my link to the Association. It's purely speculation on my part but it fits together.



Are you planning to have her reappear?

[olegrand]

Yes I intend to use her in a scenario set in 1965, two years after the incident and six months after Ian and Barbara's return. A very psychological story about the traumatic memories left by the Daleks - featuring Ian, Barbara, the Girl and (of course) Counter Measures. No Daleks per se - but their nightmarish "shadows" left imprinted in the borken psyche of the little girl.

It should be Lady Penelope's next episode - coming this very Saturday!

Concerning her background, yes, I'll definitely use Ratcliffe as a major element of the backstory - he convinced the girl's father (a member of the Association) to let the Daleks take his child (not that he could do anything about it) and the father got exterminated along with Ratcliffe at the end. The girl's mother sank in a deep depression and the child was removed of her care to be placed into a secret governmental clinic, under the watchful attention of Counter Measures.

Lady Penelope will have to rescue the little girl from her inner terrors - the image / shadow of the Supreme black Dalek is still haunting her, buried in her psyche, almost like a possessing entity. Fortunately, under certain conditions, Penelope's TARDIS is able to briefly enter somebody else's "mindscape" when the individual has a "psychic breach" connecting him or her to an outside force, reality or source of power (which is the case here - the girl's now severed but never "healed" link with the defunct Dalek battle computer). I almost never use the Daleks in our games - but when I do, it's usually with a "shift in perspective". Here they will appear as haunting memories / psychic nightmares.

Thanks for all your very useful replies & suggestions!

[Catsmate]

Dec 2, 2020 9:41:12 GMT olegrand said:

Yes I intend to use her in a scenario set in 1965, two years after the incident and six months after Ian and Barbara's return. A very psychological story about the traumatic memories left by the Daleks - featuring Ian, Barbara, the Girl and (of course) Counter Measures. No Daleks per se - but their nightmarish "shadows" left imprinted in the borken psyche of the little girl.

It should be Lady Penelope's next episode - coming this very Saturday!

Concerning her background, yes, I'll definitely use Ratcliffe as a major element of the backstory - he convinced the girl's father (a member of the Association) to let the Daleks take his child (not that he could do anything about it) and the father got exterminated along with Ratcliffe at the end. The girl's mother sank in a deep depression and the child was removed of her care to be placed into a secret governmental clinic, under the watchful attention of Counter Measures.

Lady Penelope will have to rescue the little girl from her inner terrors - the image / shadow of the Supreme black Dalek is still haunting her, buried in her psyche, almost like a possessing entity. Fortunately, under certain conditions, Penelope's TARDIS is able to briefly enter somebody else's "mindscape" when the individual has a "psychic breach" connecting him or her to an outside force, reality or source of power (which is the case here - the girl's now severed but never "healed" link with the defunct Dalek battle computer). I almost never use the Daleks in our games - but when I do, it's usually with a "shift in perspective". Here they will appear as haunting memories / psychic nightmares.

Thanks for all your very useful replies & suggestions!

Interesting idea, I like revisiting the loose ends of Classic Who, and Remembrance had plenty of them.
The Girl, then named Judith Winters appeared in the short story In the Community still mentally damaged twenty five years later.
The novelisation of Remembrance had the Doctor take the girl somewhere to be deprogrammed and presumably have the Dalek technology removed. It also has some moments rather like your idea of another mindscape, but from the Supreme Dalek's perspective:

...it lived by proxy through its link with the battle computer. Sometimes it dreamed. They were frightening unnatural dreams – dreams in which it walked like a biped, naked to the environment, breathing unfiltered air.

Strange, alien emotions were creating problems for its life support systems. The girl’s feelings were bleeding through the gestalt interface into the Dalek Supreme. She was playing. Each tactical problem thrown up by the battle computer was a game to her. Guided by the two thousand years of experience stored in the data banks she was solving them, each solution triggering a shot of energy to the pleasure centres in her brain.
The girl was having fun.
For one vertiginous moment the Dalek Supreme wanted to skip.

I look forward to Penelope's new adventure.

[olegrand]

Thanks! In the meantime, you can check the blurbs of our two latest episodes:

dwaitas.proboards.com/thread/3408/lady-penelopes-odyssey?page=4&scrollTo=33614

[olegrand]

We've played the episode yesterday evening!

dwaitas.blogspot.com/2020/12/episode-6-shadows-of-yesterday-penelope.html

Thanks a lot to you for the nifty suggestions & precious advice.