|
Post by Nyder on Feb 29, 2020 17:19:53 GMT
What did you think of it?
|
|
|
Post by grinch on Mar 1, 2020 20:10:18 GMT
Probably going to get slated for this. (Already have in other places) but I thought that was awful. Came across more like Chibnall trying to be clever than anything else and failing. Still, have to give him some credit I suppose. He’s certainly got people arguing... excuse me talking on social media and he’s definitely left his mark on the show.
|
|
|
Post by ninjaconor on Mar 1, 2020 20:26:19 GMT
It had some great moments, but overall felt like a bit of an overreach for Chibnall. The reveal about the Timeless Child is something I predicted a couple of weeks ago (or similar enough), and I don't think it's too bad in itself. It definitely injects a new mystery into the show, and closes a couple of past plot-holes. Pretty sure it opens some big ones too though. I just can't help but feel it would have made more sense if the Timeless Child was The Master.
Can't make up my mind if The Master's new creations were really cool or over-escalation to the point of ridiculous. The way they were dispatched though was far, far too easy and too fast. It felt very like the resolution of some of the weaker RTD finales where the threat would just build and build and then get resolved by some magical deus ex machina. If you introduce a threat that powerful, you can't juse resolve it a few scenes later. They had a potential story-arc for at least the next season, if not longer, and they just threw it away. And it's not even the first time this season it's happened!
Overall, I think it was potentially a really big episode that got turned small by a botched ending. I think the twists were interesting, but beyond Chibnall's ability to carry off with the necessary finesse. It would have been better under Moffat.
I'm giving it a Good though, because I did enjoy 80% of it as it was happening. I appreciated the dark tone, and I think all of the cast were really giving their A-game performances (with the possible exception of The Master who just isn't growing on me)
Season-wise, I gave the benefit of the doubt in the beginning about destroying Gallifrey again, expecting there'd be some kind of explanation or pay-off to make it worth it, but there really wasn't. I gave the new Master a chance, but I really don't like him and think he lacks the gravitas for the role. There were some really great episodes, but also some of the worst of NuWho. I'd hate for the show to end, and will probably continue to watch and enjoy it no matter what the quality, but I really hope for season 13 they pull themselves together a bit.
|
|
|
Post by Eryx on Mar 1, 2020 22:08:50 GMT
I thought it was good. Definitely the best of the last two seasons but it does have some issues. Came across more like Chibnall trying to be clever than anything else and failing. Still, have to give him some credit I suppose. He’s certainly got people arguing... excuse me talking on social media and he’s definitely left his mark on the show. I don't think it failed. It was a clever idea to try and tie certain older issues into New Who - specifically the "other Doctors" from the Brain of Morbius. That has been heavily discussed across the fandom for decades and this might just be the answer. Although I can't say I'm overly pleased with it. * Why do they need to keep messing the backstory? In the run up to this episode I saw repeated memes about "tune in to see canon destroyed" and I feel that the meme was right. Find something new and stop trying to rehash the same old stuff. * If the Doctor is a being from another universe at the dawn of time, who where they and how did they build a super technological gate in this universe? Why did no one come looking for a lost child? Inquiring minds want to know. * I guessed from the Matrix flashbacks that the Doctor doesn't have 13 regenerations. He/she has an unlimited number. If so why did they Time Lords have to reset them in The Time of the Doctor? * What was the point of Captain Jack a few episodes ago? Other than playing to the fans? I really expected him to be in this one. * Since when Cybermen want to destroy all biological life in the universe? They wanted to upgrade everyone to be like them. That resolution didn't sit well with me. * Why have the Directive when old Who had the in joke of the CIA (Celestial Intervention Agency). If they really want to play to fans add little references like that. Lastly and this is something that gets my goat every time... * Why keep destroying Gallifrey and wiping out the Time Lords? It was fine for the regeneration (pun intended) for the show back in 2005 but since then the planet has been lost, found, hidden, restored and now destroyed. Can they not come up with new ideas for actually having the Time Lords back and about? I liked this season far more than the last couple but Chibnall seems to be making stuff up as he goes along rather than adhering to the established lore of the show.
|
|
thereviewer
3rd Incarnation
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 278
Favourite Doctors: Jodie Whittaker, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, David Tennant, Christopher Eccelston, John Hurt, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Peter Davison, Tom Baker, William Hartnell
|
Post by thereviewer on Mar 2, 2020 3:00:21 GMT
My brain is still processing everything, but here are my thoughts for now; I thought it was great. Was it perfect? No. But this episode touches upon what I have said before; nostalgia can be toxic and it can damage one’s perception. The Master believes that by revealing how warped the past is, that he can break the Doctor. But The Doctor believes that no matter what is revealed, it doesn’t change who a person is. If you cannot understand that it is because you are obsessed with chasing an idealistic world of the past that is never going to come to you. Because all of you ignore the bad stuff that happened and focus on the good. As The Doctor once said “change depends on renewal.” And that’s the key to this episode. Change always happens and you can either stay true to who you are and learn to adapt and find your way in the world, or you can become bitter and lash out at everything because you know deep down that it is something you can never reclaim.
I do think blowing up Gallifrey again was a bit excessive, but we all know The Master by this point. He’ll be back again. I expect this Christmas we’ll have a Great Escape styled episode as The Doctor escapes from the Daleks and will most likely regroup with Team TARDIS at the end of the episode before returning later on for one more outing before either 13 Regenerates, or we have Team TARDIS die/leave. That is assuming they don't depart this Christmas.
Some things I really enjoyed was seeing more of the new Cybermen design and I just noticed the spikes on the shoulders which I like. Kind of gives them a Mad Max-like feeling to them. Also enjoyed seeing part of Supremacy of the Cybermen adapted here with the Cyber-Time-Lord designs as brief as they were. Plus, Jodie brought her A-Game to this in terms of acting especially the scene where she screams at The Master to tell her the whole story. That actually made me scared for a brief second. Plus, when she was deciding whether or not to blow up Gallifrey had me on the edge of my seat, but I'm glad she didn't do it ultimately. If she had, we'd have been stuck with a Burnham Situation where it takes away any sympathy from the character whose hands committed genocide after giving a speech on why it's bad.
As for stuff I didn’t like; some of the twists such as the Timeless Child being the Doctor I saw coming, and I felt Yaz and Graham’s escape from last week's cliffhanger was too easy. But like I’ve said, you can overlook these things and not be so analytical about every single minute detail. Otherwise you might as well complain about how in A New Hope the Empire never bothered to send the entirety of the Imperial Fleet with the Death Star to Yavin. Or complain about how in Aliens there is a hatch imminently above the final fight area which works to end the movie, but how practical is it really to have if there in-universe-design-wise. Plus, I'm willing to forgive it since their endgame escape plan was risky but paid off with creative outside-the-box thinking.
These do not ruin the enjoyment for me and it shouldn’t ruin the enjoyment for you unless you feel you are as one of my favorite 2019 Movies put it best “the system that knows so much; you decide what’s right and what’s wrong. The same way that you decide what’s funny, or not.” The people who never think about what your words and actions will do to somebody else until you’re too late and can’t take it back.
But that’s me.
Bottom line; flawed, yes. But enjoyable and a better improvement over last year’s season finale, so a better job this season. Oh and I figured out Sacha Dawn’s Master; he’s basically a combination of Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker and Anthony Ingruber’s Joker from Telltale’s Batman games. So I approve. And it now makes sense why he went bad; Missy wanted to be good and was pushing herself to do it. Knowing the Doctor had been influencing him have The Master all he needed to go all the way over the edge.
Oh, and for those wondering why Jack wasn’t here for the finale, well 1) You should have expected that, 2) There’s always Christmas, and 3) He’s currently in an Audio Drama that’s about to be released which will feature Jack FINALLY meeting River Song.
One thing I am curious is what “the society” really was. Oh, and I was partially right in that it wasn’t in Ireland and Brendan was the Doctor, so yay, me!
So to end this in-depth review, if you still want to be angry and attack everything just to vent your frustrations at things you don’t like and want to express that regardless of who you feel you may hurt, allow me to close on these lyrics;
“That’s life. And as funny as it may seem, some people get their kicks by stomping on a dream. But I don’t let it, let it get me down. Cause this fine old world, it keeps spinning around. That’s life, and I can’t deny it. Many times I thought about quitting, but my heart just won’t buy it. But if there’s nothing shaking come this here July, I’m gonna roll myself up, in a big ball, and die.”
|
|
|
Post by ninjaconor on Mar 2, 2020 9:00:12 GMT
Just thinking, this episode really complicates River Song.
Eleven said that the Time Lords gained regeneration through exposure to the Time Vortex. River was chosen by The Silence to be engineered into a Time Lord because she was conceived during Time Travel and so was open to receiving the power of regeneration. But, if regeneration is purely a genetic thing and was something the Time Lords mastered before time travel, why did The Silence need River? Couldn't they have engineered just anyone into a Time Lord?
Also, if The Doctor isn't a Time Lord and is from some hitherto unseen race, what does that make Susan? We know she left Gallifrey with him and only Time Lords were allowed on Gallifrey at the time, and Ten made plenty of references to being a dad, so I think it's fairly likely she was his biological granddaughter. So was she one-quarter Timeless-Child-race? And what does it make Jenny?
I have a feeling this plot twist wasn't very well thought through. I'm kind of expecting that, like the half-human Doctor, somebody is just going to retcon it once Chibnall is gone.
|
|
|
Post by grinch on Mar 2, 2020 9:38:42 GMT
Just thinking, this episode really complicates River Song. Eleven said that the Time Lords gained regeneration through exposure to the Time Vortex. River was chosen by The Silence to be engineered into a Time Lord because she was conceived during Time Travel and so was open to receiving the power of regeneration. But, if regeneration is purely a genetic thing and was something the Time Lords mastered before time travel, why did The Silence need River? Couldn't they have engineered just anyone into a Time Lord? Also, if The Doctor isn't a Time Lord and is from some hitherto unseen race, what does that make Susan? We know she left Gallifrey with him and only Time Lords were allowed on Gallifrey at the time, and Ten made plenty of references to being a dad, so I think it's fairly likely she was his biological granddaughter. So was she one-quarter Timeless-Child-race? And what does it make Jenny? I have a feeling this plot twist wasn't very well thought through. I'm kind of expecting that, like the half-human Doctor, somebody is just going to retcon it once Chibnall is gone. Not to worry. I’m sure Big Finish are already brainstorming how to explain River Song for her next boxset as well as how they can bring in this Timeless Child stuff into some of their stories...
|
|
thereviewer
3rd Incarnation
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 278
Favourite Doctors: Jodie Whittaker, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, David Tennant, Christopher Eccelston, John Hurt, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Peter Davison, Tom Baker, William Hartnell
|
Post by thereviewer on Mar 2, 2020 10:48:24 GMT
Just thinking, this episode really complicates River Song. Eleven said that the Time Lords gained regeneration through exposure to the Time Vortex. River was chosen by The Silence to be engineered into a Time Lord because she was conceived during Time Travel and so was open to receiving the power of regeneration. But, if regeneration is purely a genetic thing and was something the Time Lords mastered before time travel, why did The Silence need River? Couldn't they have engineered just anyone into a Time Lord? Also, if The Doctor isn't a Time Lord and is from some hitherto unseen race, what does that make Susan? We know she left Gallifrey with him and only Time Lords were allowed on Gallifrey at the time, and Ten made plenty of references to being a dad, so I think it's fairly likely she was his biological granddaughter. So was she one-quarter Timeless-Child-race? And what does it make Jenny? I have a feeling this plot twist wasn't very well thought through. I'm kind of expecting that, like the half-human Doctor, somebody is just going to retcon it once Chibnall is gone. Not to worry. I’m sure Big Finish are already brainstorming how to explain River Song for her next boxset as well as how they can bring in this Timeless Child stuff into some of their stories... grinch, Thank you for defending me here. This is why I don't hold grudges against you or others just because they don't like the same thing. As I've said, retcons are going to happen and you can either be mature and go along or leave without making a scene, or cause a scene. Plus, when has River Song EVER been anything but simple? Not to mention that Tasha Lem pointed out how The Church of the Silence fractured in Time of the Doctor. Madame Kovarian and her people were separate from the Church doing their own thing. So of course they wouldn't have all the information out there even without the retcon. I believe Dorium Maldovar even said how The Silence were anything but organized. As for the Doctor saying how the Time Lords gained regeneration through exposure to the Time Vortex, he was also the Doctor who claimed that he could regenerate 507 times. Not to mention his line of "The Doctor always lies." I'd hate to keep having to do this ninjaconor, but either because I binged I am Not Okay With This this weekend or because I come from a family of lawyers or because I always see the good in things even if I don't like them, I find that I keep coming back to defend stuff like this because it is only a THEORY which can be equally picked apart and have arguments going against it in both ways. Just because it's your idea does not mean it's always right. Just like my theories are not always right, but it works in both ways; there's always an argument for and against it.
|
|
|
Post by Escher on Mar 2, 2020 11:51:08 GMT
It was always alluded to during the Seventh Doctor's tenure that the Doctor was something more than a Time Lord. The previous unknown regenerations in the mind-bending duel in The Brain of Morbius and Latimer's statement in 'Family of Blood' that The Doctor is "ancient and forever, he burns at the centre of time and he can see the universe” appears that Chibnall took those free-standing plot seeds and ran with them.
To be honest, I rather like that idea of a wealth of pre-Hartnell Doctors hidden in the shadows of time. Therein lies untold plot potential.
|
|
|
Post by ninjaconor on Mar 2, 2020 12:03:17 GMT
Not to worry. I’m sure Big Finish are already brainstorming how to explain River Song for her next boxset as well as how they can bring in this Timeless Child stuff into some of their stories... grinch, Thank you for defending me here. This is why I don't hold grudges against you or others just because they don't like the same thing. As I've said, retcons are going to happen and you can either be mature and go along or leave without making a scene, or cause a scene. Plus, when has River Song EVER been anything but simple? Not to mention that Tasha Lem pointed out how The Church of the Silence fractured in Time of the Doctor. Madame Kovarian and her people were separate from the Church doing their own thing. So of course they wouldn't have all the information out there even without the retcon. I believe Dorium Maldovar even said how The Silence were anything but organized. As for the Doctor saying how the Time Lords gained regeneration through exposure to the Time Vortex, he was also the Doctor who claimed that he could regenerate 507 times. Not to mention his line of "The Doctor always lies." I'd hate to keep having to do this ninjaconor, but either because I binged I am Not Okay With This this weekend or because I come from a family of lawyers or because I always see the good in things even if I don't like them, I find that I keep coming back to defend stuff like this because it is only a THEORY which can be equally picked apart and have arguments going against it in both ways. Just because it's your idea does not mean it's always right. Just like my theories are not always right, but it works in both ways; there's always an argument for and against it. I'm not sure what you're reading from my post, but I'm as against the industry of internet negativity as they come. I think far too many people are ready to pounce on movies or TV shows for not living up to their own unattainable standards, because outrage sells podcasts and YouTube videos. Nobody goes online to hear about how the new Star Wars was above average but a bit disjointed or about how this season of Doctor Who was a little uneven but generally entertaining. I think this episode was pretty good overall. That said, being positive about the good aspects doesn't mean the negative aspects can't be talked about too. I mean, we all know these plot holes will eventually be filled through retcon or fan theories, but the point stands that this twist wasn't executed in the most skillful way. EDIT: I'll also point out that in The Name of the Doctor, Clara stepped into The Doctor's timeline. It wasn't his memory, it was his actual birth-to-death path of existence. Why didn't she encounter any of these previous lives? It's another consequence that just wasn't considered, leading me to really question what level of planning went into this twist.
|
|
thereviewer
3rd Incarnation
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 278
Favourite Doctors: Jodie Whittaker, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, David Tennant, Christopher Eccelston, John Hurt, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Peter Davison, Tom Baker, William Hartnell
|
Post by thereviewer on Mar 2, 2020 12:33:01 GMT
grinch , Thank you for defending me here. This is why I don't hold grudges against you or others just because they don't like the same thing. As I've said, retcons are going to happen and you can either be mature and go along or leave without making a scene, or cause a scene. Plus, when has River Song EVER been anything but simple? Not to mention that Tasha Lem pointed out how The Church of the Silence fractured in Time of the Doctor. Madame Kovarian and her people were separate from the Church doing their own thing. So of course they wouldn't have all the information out there even without the retcon. I believe Dorium Maldovar even said how The Silence were anything but organized. As for the Doctor saying how the Time Lords gained regeneration through exposure to the Time Vortex, he was also the Doctor who claimed that he could regenerate 507 times. Not to mention his line of "The Doctor always lies." I'd hate to keep having to do this ninjaconor, but either because I binged I am Not Okay With This this weekend or because I come from a family of lawyers or because I always see the good in things even if I don't like them, I find that I keep coming back to defend stuff like this because it is only a THEORY which can be equally picked apart and have arguments going against it in both ways. Just because it's your idea does not mean it's always right. Just like my theories are not always right, but it works in both ways; there's always an argument for and against it. I'm not sure what you're reading from my post, but I'm as against the industry of internet negativity as they come. I think far too many people are ready to pounce on movies or TV shows for not living up to their own unattainable standards, because outrage sells podcasts and YouTube videos. Nobody goes online to hear about how the new Star Wars was above average but a bit disjointed or about how this season of Doctor Who was a little uneven but generally entertaining. I think this episode was pretty good overall. That said, being positive about the good aspects doesn't mean the negative aspects can't be talked about too. I mean, we all know these plot holes will eventually be filled through retcon or fan theories, but the point stands that this twist wasn't executed in the most skillful way. EDIT: I'll also point out that in The Name of the Doctor, Clara stepped into The Doctor's timeline. It wasn't his memory, it was his actual birth-to-death path of existence. Why didn't she encounter any of these previous lives? It's another consequence that just wasn't considered, leading me to really question what level of planning went into this twist. ninjaconor, I appreciate you telling me about how you are against the negativity of the internet. I know it's hard to realize, but your posts often do come across in that way. I wish I could tell you how to put it into better words, but I can't. Everybody is different, and everybody expresses things differently. But I appreciate that we are talking like this and that you are telling me this. To be expressing this means that you are willing to do something that I cannot express my appreciation for; sitting to talk about how to work forward. As for the not-planning out, how do we know that Clara didn't see that? Not to mention that getting out of the Timeline might've had an effect on her memories and she might've forgotten. Or perhaps there's a time-lock around that area of time. Like you said, it's a fan theory until proven wrong. Plus, I feel that there's still a mystery out there yet to be revealed such as where The Doctor really came from and what the society was.
|
|
|
Post by ninjaconor on Mar 2, 2020 12:48:04 GMT
As for the not-planning out, how do we know that Clara didn't see that? CLARA: Who's that? DOCTOR: Never mind. Let's go back. CLARA: But who is he? DOCTOR: He's me. There's only me here, that's the point. Now let's get back. CLARA: But I never saw that one. I saw all of you. Eleven faces, all of them you. You're the eleventh Doctor. Also, I rated this episode Good. I hardly think that qualifies as being unjustly negative. I've watched all 57 years of this show and I still enjoy it. Constructive criticism is not negativity.
|
|
thereviewer
3rd Incarnation
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 278
Favourite Doctors: Jodie Whittaker, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, David Tennant, Christopher Eccelston, John Hurt, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Peter Davison, Tom Baker, William Hartnell
|
Post by thereviewer on Mar 2, 2020 13:14:16 GMT
As for the not-planning out, how do we know that Clara didn't see that? CLARA: Who's that? DOCTOR: Never mind. Let's go back. CLARA: But who is he? DOCTOR: He's me. There's only me here, that's the point. Now let's get back. CLARA: But I never saw that one. I saw all of you. Eleven faces, all of them you. You're the eleventh Doctor. Also, I rated this episode Good. I hardly think that qualifies as being unjustly negative. I've watched all 57 years of this show and I still enjoy it. Constructive criticism is not negativity. But Clara fainted after that moment. She also stated she didn’t understand. For all we know, she could’ve lost her memory during that incident since she didn’t recognize Ten or The War Doctor in the following episode. Again, I’m not saying constructive criticism is what’s being negative, but the way you phrase it seems to be mainly negative. Like I said, I don’t know how to fix it. But if you want to PM me to discuss it in further detail, that’d be appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by grinch on Mar 2, 2020 13:51:16 GMT
Have to agree with ninjaconor I’m afraid. It does seem rather poorly thought out at the moment. Not to mention takes away the impact of the War Doctor being some lost and unspoken of incarnation if as it turns out the Doctor has had many previous versions before the First ever left Gallifrey.
Also not quite sure where you’re getting this idea of him being negative from. His constructive criticism has seemed nothing but fair to me.
To quote the Doctor himself;
”A sceptical mind is a healthy mind.” - The Conquest of Far
|
|
thereviewer
3rd Incarnation
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 278
Favourite Doctors: Jodie Whittaker, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, David Tennant, Christopher Eccelston, John Hurt, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Peter Davison, Tom Baker, William Hartnell
|
Post by thereviewer on Mar 2, 2020 14:16:27 GMT
Have to agree with ninjaconor I’m afraid. It does seem rather poorly thought out at the moment. Not to mention takes away the impact of the War Doctor being some lost and unspoken of incarnation if as it turns out the Doctor has had many previous versions before the First ever left Gallifrey. Also not quite sure where you’re getting this idea of him being negative from. His constructive criticism has seemed nothing but fair to me. To quote the Doctor himself; ”A sceptical mind is a healthy mind.” - The Conquest of Far See the comment above yours for the answer.
|
|
|
Post by Escher on Mar 2, 2020 16:07:20 GMT
It would have been easy enough for the Time Lords to erase all the Doctor's earlier memories before the Hartnell incarnation.
They showed a sequence of the policeman/Doctor having his memories erased in that episode -and it was the Doctor(the falling child in Ireland, the timeless child falling off the cliff).
|
|
solas
2nd Incarnation
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 97
|
Post by solas on Mar 2, 2020 17:08:12 GMT
Having watched this, it's objectively fair to say that it was in fact, not a good episode.
And that isn't jumping on some negative internet bandwagon or hating on Chibnall, though I think it's totally valid to point out a good majority of the episodes of this season (and all of which, including this two-parter have rated as some of the worst recieved of the modern show's history) are 'lecture' driven and are seemingly ideologically driven. Science ficition at its very best works was a parallel to modern life in order to be able to be speculative; when a show abandons that premise to at least on one occasion speak directly to the audience as to their faulty thinking over an issue, it loses its ability to become anything other than a modern contemporary drama.
I'm not afraid to step out with my thoughts on this episode and cite my experience. I'm trained in film production and scriptwriting and editing and this is clearly an episode with no consideration for what has come before it in any shape or fashion. I've seen several comments here saying for example Clara may not have seen other incarnations of the Doctor when she was in their timestream.
That is pure conjecture and the only, the only evidence that matters is that which is put upon the screen before us. That is irrevocably fact, it is irrevocably canon and unless you or anyone else can somehow provide something than an interpreted phrase or piece of dialogue to support a theory, it remains precisely a theory.
Putting forward the notion that the Doctor is an alien from another galaxy with presumably infinite regenerative capability is a nonsensical plot device of the highest order. Why?
1) It completely undermines the long-canon explanation of Rassilon and Omega being amongst the founders of the TIme Lords, along with the Other (which is also a fan theory but more plausible than what we are being presented with, but more on that in a moment).
2) It fundamentally makes redundant and undramatic the notion of the Doctor's death. There is dramatically now no reason to care about a character that can never die. Part of the nature of the regeneration trope in Who is the feeling of loss of that Doctor, it being a death and their existence being finite. Now we're being asked to accept (not even asked really, we are lectured to) that these thirteen characters are part of a longer 'more diverse' cycle of regenerations.
3) It undoes the Time Lords gifting Eleven a new regeneration cycle. If the Doctor was capable of unending regeneration, then there was never a need to intervene, the Doctor should have welcomed death because there was no fear of death. It undercuts and undermines the character at its very core because so very much has been made of the character's mortality.
The Other was a theory (with some small basis in fact given Sylvester McCoy's suggestive turn in the role as being 'more than a Time Lord') that placed them alongside Rassilon and Omega as a balancing force in the universe, but to squarely put the Doctor as the source of the entire concept serves that story nor that of the Doctor themselves any justice whatsoever.
I will put aside why I think the episodes, most of this season and in fact the very seeds of why I believe the show has been interpreted as it is now because that is best discussed seperately and apart from the episodes themselves.
My arguments will never be simply 'rooted in nostalgia' or be because 'oh, I'm an angry white boomer and how dare you decide to make the Doctor a woman' because I grew up with Romana. A strong, independent, smarter than the Doctor in some things FEMALE TIME LORD.
I want well-written, cohesive, intelligent fiction that has consequences and internal logic. At some point you cannot, you MUST not say a thing is great because of the sake of something different. Change for changes' sake without considering that change, without evolving that change makes it seem shallow, ill-thought through and frankly, for the sake of a much smaller audience than intended.
|
|
|
Post by starkllr on Mar 2, 2020 17:32:02 GMT
Count me among the people who didn't like it. At all.
The episode fails as basic storytelling. The Doctor doesn't actually DO anything. The whole tale of her new past is told to her; she does nothing to discover it, to piece anything together, to follow any clues. It's all exposition, and there's not even anything done to make it more immersive - say, to have the Doctor actually experiencing the story being told as though it's happening to her, rather than just watching it.
She also does nothing at the climax of the episode. I know it's a longstanding Doctor Who trope to have the Doctor refuse to do the terrible thing at the end of a story and to have someone else (expendable) step in at the last minute to make the hard choice and accept the consequence. If Chibnall wanted to break new ground for the show, maybe THAT'S something he could have changed and made the Doctor actually have her hands get dirty and experience the consequences.
The Master's turn to Joker-esque cartoon evil, after the long arc of Missy's (semi) redemption in Season 10 really bothered me in the season premiere. It's even worse here. I have no problem with him making another miraculous and unexplained return from certain death, but why did Chibnall have to also undo a full season's worth of a pretty interesting story to do it? I guess it's possible this Master is actually pre-Missy, but that would have been something it'd be nice to have explored (or at least questioned by the Doctor) onscreen. And THAT would have made a harder dilemma for the Doctor, if she knew that this Master has to survive in order to regenerate into Missy otherwise her own whole personal history will change.
Blowing up Gallifrey again, after it was already (off screen) blown up by the Master, is just bad writing. They couldn't come up with ANYTHING to do with the Time Lords other than kill them all off as part of the backstory? It was novel and set up a lot of story threads when RTD did it. To do it again (especially after "Day of the Doctor" brought went through so much effort to bring Gallifrey back) is just lazy.
And the biggie - the total rewriting of the entire history of the show, for...what? Shock value? To create a multi-season mystery about the origin of the Timeless Child that will likely never be resolved in anything approaching a satisfactory way? To poke a finger in the eye of fans who complained about last season?
Not to mention that making the Doctor a magic, ultimately powerful, completely immortal being from another dimension or universe, rather than what she's always been - an ordinary Time Lord who decided she couldn't just sit back, but decided to go out and fight evil because it was the right thing to do - completely undermines the character. It's just...I can't even summon up the words for how much I hate it.
|
|
|
Post by ninjaconor on Mar 2, 2020 18:53:36 GMT
Just thinking. If only The Doctor had figured this out before Mawdryn Undead, none of those mutants would have had to die ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
|
|
|
Post by olegrand on Mar 2, 2020 20:26:01 GMT
Well, after having inadvertently glimpsed a few spoilers here and there, I was readying myself for some seriously infuriating demolition of established Who-lore... but that didn't really happen.
All the stuff about the Timeless Child simply felt pointless, gratuitous and boring. Or in other words: much ado about nothing. In the end, I fail to see what all this "new stuff" really adds or even changes to the show, apart from providing yet another explanation for the Doctor's unlimited regenerations...All this, for that? And the bits with the "Ruth Doctor" in the Matrix simply struck me as a cheap, utterly predictable "don't be afraid to be yourself" pirouette. -
I won't repeat what's already been said about how gratuitous and tired continuity stunts have become.
There were good bits with the Cybermen, the Cyberium etc. but frankly, this episode really failed to entertain me. And the new Master really seems like a caricature of John Simm's portrayal, with a bit of Joker thrown in...
In the end, it struck me as a half-decent Cybermen story, made unsufferably pretentious by the whole "redacted Gallifrey / Timeless Child" subplot. And as my wife noticed, the Doctor and her friends passed the best of the story blowing stuff up - spectacular, perhaps, but so clichéd and predictable.
The farewell scene was OK... but was almost immediately swamped down by yet another clichéd and verbose Doctor/Master facedown. Frankly, I could predict almost every line of dialogue... up to the all-too-convenient, timely sacrifice of the old warrior ("my journey ends here...")... uninspired and facile...
In the end, the story would have worked equally well (no, better) without the Timeless Child subplot...
The final image of the prison struck me as unwittingly, ironically accurate.
On the whole, I was really disappointed. It saddens me to say it but I don't know if I'll watch the next season (well, that's how I feel right now). Hopefully the next Doctor's incarnation / showrunner will bring a complete change of style...
|
|
|
Post by Escher on Mar 3, 2020 15:31:56 GMT
We also had the prophesy of The Hybrid destroying Gallifrey come true.
|
|
|
Post by markrand on Mar 3, 2020 21:13:21 GMT
I voted for good simply because I thought it was a lot better most of the episodes I've seen this or last season. Admittedly, that's not saying much.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Mar 4, 2020 14:55:29 GMT
I'm not going to repeat all the very valid criticism above, other than to say yes to bad storytelling techniques (the big reveal is entirely exposition — what was the point of all the hints through the series if you're just going to resolve it in exposition?) and yes to the opinion that the huge retcon was AWFUL.
The one thing I liked about the episode was the portrayal of the Master. Others found it cartoonish villany; I like Dhawan's intensity.
Not "season 6b," thank you very much.
Why is every Chibnall-produced episode filled with white noise? Since the beginning of series 11 I can barely hear what the characters are saying for all the humming, whooshing, rumbling, clanking, and banging always going on in the background of every episode.
Up to this point I'd been holding out hope that Chibnall wasn't a complete hack. I've lost all hope now.
So. The Doctor isn't a restless, mediocre Time Lord who, being stifled by Time Lord rules of noninterference, stole a time capsule to explore the universe and make a difference. The Doctor is an immortal superbeing from another dimension who is the basis of all Time Lord society and powers, who worked for Time Lord black ops until she had all her memory erased, and then she ran away.
Right.
|
|
|
Post by senko on Mar 5, 2020 10:09:58 GMT
. . . I go through a door and close it behind me. Screams, ranting and the sound of breaking objects are heard. I emerge, take a deep breath and tilt my head . . . "No, one moment." Turning I go back into the other room. More screams, crashing sounds and the sobbing of a broken soul can be made out through the door. I emerge again, the observant may notice a stress ball is being convulsively squeezed in each hand. "Ok I'm not sure how long I can keep it together after what the add gave truth in advertising by saying Dr who comes to an end. So lets just take these in order as best I can." 1) The ship is the cybermens because the humans ran into a vent?
2) Bad history quote is bad history quote and you are no Ozymandius.
3) That set doesn't look like the original one for the centre of Gallifrey just like so much is just being changed for the sake of change and handwaved like being in the matrix.
4) Why would the cybermen deal with the master at all or believe his claims of being on gallifrey as opposed to just killing him outright?
5) Soooo all the explanation of the boundary we get is "a random fluke to the time locked bubble universe?" Not the only handwaved thing either such as why he'd give Gallifrey to the Cyberman or how he destroyed Gallifrey. Maybe its supposed to explain his just leaving the doomsday device on the floor for her to find.
6) The master's all over the place in what seems like bad attempts at humour, he leaves the doctor's companions to enforce her compliance then tells the cybermen to kill his hold on her???
8) More stomping on poor Graham with him giving a long, passionate speach about how much he admires Yas and her response "Your not such a bad human yourself either." Which is played for a joke with him replying is that it and her saying its a love letter or his being unable to get the helmet off. With her being the companion we're keeping why couldn't it be graham.
9) The master was in the system before way back in Colin's era.s
10) The Doctor's response to the paralysis field sounded disturbingly like she was enjoying it "oh, oh, oh."
11) I have no better nature, what about Missy's entire ark ending in her sacrifying herself?
12) So no we have Tectayun who developed space travel but no mention of Rassilon or Omega. Really the Shebogan's that sounds like the name a GM comes up with when they have no idea how to respond to a players question. Then she becomes their leader and we're ignoring the fact they're GALLIFREYANS as they've normally been called. The race is Gallifrey, the timelords are the elite class.
13) So Tectayun explores the universe but not through the gateway. How did she know the kid was abandoned and doesn't have parents desperately searching for her? Twitch. Then we have the fact she lets her child like any parent play on a cliff where a boy can push her to her death. I'm also fairly sure most parents don't perform experiments on their kids including KILLING them.
14) This hurts, you've destroyed soo much lore, so much history, so much canon to have the doctor be a great old one who apparently has unlimtied natural regenerations (the first several are all into different girls). This, this is what will make it hard for me to enjoy old who much less anything in the current era. William Hartnell is no longer the first Doctor, Jodie is no longer the first female doctor, the doctor is no longer even GALLIFREYAN . . . sorry Shebogan. Not to mention Rassilon, Omega anyone other than this "Tectayun" self insert. Instead the doctor is a cliche special child from another dimension with unique powers that is the central focus of everything as opposed to an almost failed runaway or the hoop jumping to explain events in the 11th/12th Doctors end of run.
15) Why did the cybermen go from upgrading to destroying al life. Death particle . . . is this a DC crossover how did the cyberium even create such a thing. What did it wipe out a galaxy and go "Ok this is promising no I need to work a bit more on it."? Not to mention all that it needs to activate is "break glass" and its a particle so why does minaturizing it have any effect its already a particle.
16) Yet another enemy deus ex machina'd and this one didn't even get to be the big bad just getting killed out of hand partway through to become a plot device.
17) Two brains . . . TWO BRAINS . . . TWO BRAINS! ![???](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/huh.png)
18) The Cyberium apparently doesn't try to take over like the Cyber controller did when the doctor was infected previously.
19) The timelords history is not BORN TO RULE it was guidance then when that had terrible consequences DON'T INTERFERE.
20) Oh look the CIA is now the division with no explanation of the change's reason. Not to mention they start deleting AFTER the division reveal rather than oh before and after the memory wipe procedure. Then of course the doctor is so special that his memories took up a lot of the matrix as opposed to the millions of other timelords before and after that point. Something the new Doctor is apparently happy to preach both trapping the master in a Nazi concentration camp and then saying her genes make her better than him.
21) How do the regenerating timelords not fight the cyber suits like we've seen multiple other people do before? Not to mention the design, the robes and spikes, it makes me want to cry just thinking about them. Again HOW did the master destroy everyone especially given we KNOW there are rogue elements who have rejected the timelord lifestyle. Plus of course we have previous evidence even in this series of (a) cyber armour being destroyed and (b) timelords being killed. Then there's the tiny matter of the doctor's regenerations trashing all sorts of stuff including a TARDIS so why didn't the "killed" cyberman blow their armour away? For that matter aren't they still subject to the 12 regeneration rule?
23) On thinking back what happened to those other humans sent through the boundary or the rest of the human race?
24) If there were all these other Doctors out there why have we never seen one of them or their companions? Oh and I noticed your little "Memories" dig at the fans showwriters and YES. IT. MATTERS. Oh and I also noticed black woman is "better" than "white woman" at being the Doctor. Either way you didn't earn that little original sound track playing over your thinking. While we're on the subject how did this "blow the matrix' affect the paralysis field?
25) Oh look its the last jedi and psychic connection between the master and the doctor.
26) Hmmm there's multiple TARDIS'S and time lord tech just left lying around the universe. Also why didn't they have the classic/standard all white console instead of these blue/purple ones?
27) Legion oh so this is the origin of Terminator Dark Fate as well. On that note why would the master care about the Cyberions knowledge and tactics when its repeatedly lost and is less advanced than the timelords or it should be not counting that weird floating silver metal thing.
28) So much for the Doctor's being willing to sacrifice herself in a heartbeat for the univerese instead its necessary for an old man to make the sacrifice instead. Wilfred would be ashamed of what you've become. Also why are we supposed to care if she blows up the death particle and kills everyone we just got told she has unlimited regenerations.
29) Oh by the way how when one shot kills a cyberman in armour does the old man trigger the bomb after MULTIPLE shots from MULTIPLE angles.
30) Ah yes of course the TARDIS defenses are as effective as a wet paper bag at preventing any Tom, Dick and Judoon from beaming on board. I'd hoped we'd moved past that but instead we've made it a plot point. With a crack one of the stress balls bursts spilling sand everywhere. I glance down then up again. So yeah I'm done this, this is an abomination. Its not even content with destroying canon and lore established over decades of a shared universe its actively tearing down its own lore before its even finished building it. Behold the first female doctor, then before her runs even over but wait she's not the first female doctor there was another before her, in fact the first doctor was actually female and black. I can't even be sure that I'll be able to console myself with the game and classic who because whenever I look at them I fear I'll see this mangled, beaten corpse bleeding social justice messages all over them. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go and try to repress this episode and convince myself the true ending of Doctor Who is a broken Doctor living out his years in a TARDIS over the skies of London unaware Gallifrey is fine in a time bubble he created.
|
|
|
Post by olegrand on Mar 5, 2020 11:12:14 GMT
Great post, Senko ![:|](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/plain.png) It seems that many, many people are utterly disappointed / gutted by this season finale - personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the next season was the last. Time and the ratings will tell... But hey, the DW community will survive! (And from a strictly RPG-centric perspective, I'm SO GLAD to have taken the decision, years ago, to set my ongoing campaign in an alternate continuity, branching out right after the RTD era ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ). I was rethinking about the whole, tedious Tecteun backstory and then it hit me: it completely sounded and felt like a piece of bad fan-fiction.
|
|
|
Post by grinch on Mar 5, 2020 13:53:16 GMT
Great post, Senko ![:|](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/plain.png) It seems that many, many people are utterly disappointed / gutted by this season finale - personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the next season was the last. Time and the ratings will tell... But hey, the DW community will survive! (And from a strictly RPG-centric perspective, I'm SO GLAD to have taken the decision, years ago, to set my ongoing campaign in an alternate continuity, branching out right after the RTD era ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) ). I was rethinking about the whole, tedious Tecteun backstory and then it hit me: it completely sounded and felt like a piece of bad fan-fiction. For all we know, a lot of next year could be damage control. I can’t see it being axed though. Can you just imagine the backlash the BBC would get? One shudders at the thought and then reaches for a stiff drink. All power to anyone who enjoyed it but I do agree it does come across like poorly thought out fanfiction. Not to mention, I’m really not a fan of the Mystery Box style of writing in general. Quite agree. My campaign basically follows the same continuity as the series except for the fact that Rufus Hound’s Monk regenerated before the Time War. Such an act and a new incarnation at such a pivotal time made all the difference as it turns out. Like I said, if anyone enjoyed it, good for you. Clearly you saw something there that I didn’t and I hope you enjoy the next series. Somehow I doubt that I will be including any of this Timeless children stuff when it comes to my campaign. It does help that such encounters with the Doctor are rare at best.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Mar 5, 2020 14:28:57 GMT
Really the Shebogan's that sounds like the name a GM comes up with when they have no idea how to respond to a players question. Then she becomes their leader and we're ignoring the fact they're GALLIFREYANS as they've normally been called. The race is Gallifrey, the timelords are the elite class. Actually, the Shobogans are named and introduced in the Fourth Doctor story "The Deadly Assassin," where they are the troublemaker Gallifreyans who live outside the Capitol and are not Time Lords.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Mar 5, 2020 14:29:55 GMT
For all we know, a lot of next year could be damage control. Series 12 was supposed to be damage control for series 11.
|
|
|
Post by senko on Mar 5, 2020 19:47:07 GMT
You know on thinking about it now that I've calmed down a bit this seasons had a rather strong and hopefully unintinded racist vibe. 1) The white woman sends the indian man to a Nazi concentration camp as a good heroic action. 2) The same white woman boosts to the indian man her genes make her better than him. 3) The strong female scientist kidnaps a little girl, experiments on and repeatedly kills her then promptly regenerates into a visibly darker skinned man. olegrandI hope the community survives but a lot of fans are walking away after this episode including the one who holds the record of the largest Dr Who collection. So its not just new people but long term, dedicated fans who've spent a lot of money on the series over the years. StormcrowAh yes I'd forgotten that in my pain over this episode still the point stands I think. The race was never the Shebogans they were always Gallifreyans.
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Mar 5, 2020 20:27:31 GMT
The Shobogans from Hoboken.
|
|