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Post by Null and Void on Nov 27, 2009 18:06:24 GMT
It struck me, as I was re-listening to the Faction Paradox Audios, that there is a perfect seed for re-establishing the Faction in the universe of Doctor Who. Ready for a Faction Paradox spoiler? . . . . . . . . . . . After the first two audios, the 11-Day Empire is consumed by Lolita. All members of the Faction (to say nothing of the Sontarans) present there were, presumably, consumed along with it, with only Justine and Eliza escaping. The fun thing about the 11-Day Empire is that it was a sort of paradox. The 11 days it existed in were plucked from the calendar as England converted from Julian to Gregorian dating. This gave them a little place outside of time that they could use as a home base, and as it was based on an impossibility (that the calendar reform was something more than just bookkeeping). Most temporal powers couldn't recognize it for what it was... it was bubble paradox universe. Now, in the Doctor Who series, where have we seen such a paradox happen in a more literal sense? The Year The Never Was. It was created through the use of a Pardox machine, yes, but it still existed, and DOES exist in the memories of everyone who was aboard the Valiant. Yes, headache inducing, but what about time travel isn't? The point is, the Year That Never Was could obviously become a very attractive prospect for colonization by members of Faction Paradox... either those who managed to escape from Lolita, or who weren't in the 11 Day Empire when it fell, or a newly created Faction with Justine and Eliza at the helm. Remember... Faction Paradox is just Doctor Who with the serial numbers filed off, so it should be an easy fit. The Faction was involved in the Time War, but more as a spoiler for both sides. They could have their pick of all sorts of discarded War-era materials. A whole series of adventures could be centered around trying to obtain the eqipment necessary to open a door to the Year that Never Was, and establish themselves. Plus dealing with whatever nastiness is left over in there (Toclafane, perhaps?) Well... *I* think it would be fun...
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Post by doctorflea on Nov 29, 2009 9:54:29 GMT
That's genius! I've only recently been listening to those two plays and am now trying to find the third ( Bill Baggs the producer at BBV doesn't have any of the CDs in stock!). I, too, had been trying to think of ways to bring the Faction back into Doctor Who ( they first appeared in the 8th Doctor novel Alien Bodies, I believe) and I can't believe such a smart way was staring me in the face the whole time... especially as I was also looking at ways to incorporate The Master's year of dominance over the Earth into a story as well. Sometime's genius is staring you in the face and you don't even realise it. Thank you, NullandVoid. If people are after more Faction Paradox inspired headaches for their games, might I also draw their attention to this article by Tim Brannan ( author of the Ghosts of Albion RPG, for the Cinematic Unisystem): timbrannan.blogspot.com/2009/11/sisters-of-paradox.html
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Post by Null and Void on Nov 29, 2009 16:45:05 GMT
Thats an interesting article... gives some food for thought at least. You've seen the Faction Paradox forums, haven't you? There are lots of FP campaign ideas on there... it think there's even a fiction archive linked on there somewhere. factionparadox.yuku.com/directoryI also highly recommend the books... The Book of the War by Lawrence Miles is a literal goldmine of brilliant ideas to add to the mix. The BBV audios are getting hard to find... I have them and listen to them over and over. Try ... Alien Entertainment. They may still have a few. The second series of audios, put out by Magic Bullet, are more easily found... and in fact they just released the 6th of that series, called 'The Judgement of Sutekh'. I placed my order about 5 minutes ago.
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Post by doctorflea on Nov 30, 2009 12:54:55 GMT
Thats an interesting article... gives some food for thought at least. You've seen the Faction Paradox forums, haven't you? There are lots of FP campaign ideas on there... it think there's even a fiction archive linked on there somewhere. factionparadox.yuku.com/directoryI also highly recommend the books... The Book of the War by Lawrence Miles is a literal goldmine of brilliant ideas to add to the mix. The BBV audios are getting hard to find... I have them and listen to them over and over. Try ... Alien Entertainment. They may still have a few. The second series of audios, put out by Magic Bullet, are more easily found... and in fact they just released the 6th of that series, called 'The Judgement of Sutekh'. I placed my order about 5 minutes ago. Thank you for all of this. I didn't even know of the Faction forum, so have dipped my toe in there The Magic Bullet CDs are quite easy to get hold of in the UK, it's the original BBV one's I was struggling to get ( it almost seems as though "every other one" in the cycle is available!). The Book Of War is in my huge "to read" pile and probably will be tackled sometime early next year.
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Post by Null and Void on Nov 30, 2009 13:32:19 GMT
Thats an interesting article... gives some food for thought at least. You've seen the Faction Paradox forums, haven't you? There are lots of FP campaign ideas on there... it think there's even a fiction archive linked on there somewhere. factionparadox.yuku.com/directoryI also highly recommend the books... The Book of the War by Lawrence Miles is a literal goldmine of brilliant ideas to add to the mix. The BBV audios are getting hard to find... I have them and listen to them over and over. Try ... Alien Entertainment. They may still have a few. The second series of audios, put out by Magic Bullet, are more easily found... and in fact they just released the 6th of that series, called 'The Judgement of Sutekh'. I placed my order about 5 minutes ago. Thank you for all of this. I didn't even know of the Faction forum, so have dipped my toe in there The Magic Bullet CDs are quite easy to get hold of in the UK, it's the original BBV one's I was struggling to get ( it almost seems as though "every other one" in the cycle is available!). The Book Of War is in my huge "to read" pile and probably will be tackled sometime early next year. The best part about the Book of the War is that you don't actually need to read it cover to cover. Since its set up Encyclopedia style, you can open it up and go to any entry and start reading. I guarantee you will find something fascinating, inspiring, and utterly mad....
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Post by doctorflea on Nov 30, 2009 13:39:11 GMT
Thank you for all of this. I didn't even know of the Faction forum, so have dipped my toe in there The Magic Bullet CDs are quite easy to get hold of in the UK, it's the original BBV one's I was struggling to get ( it almost seems as though "every other one" in the cycle is available!). The Book Of War is in my huge "to read" pile and probably will be tackled sometime early next year. The best part about the Book of the War is that you don't actually need to read it cover to cover. Since its set up Encyclopedia style, you can open it up and go to any entry and start reading. I guarantee you will find something fascinating, inspiring, and utterly mad.... Very generously the person I got it from included a "road map" of the suggested order in which to read the entries!
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Post by Null and Void on Nov 30, 2009 13:50:39 GMT
Very generously the person I got it from included a "road map" of the suggested order in which to read the entries! Ah yes.... that was an Easter Egg on the old Faction Paradox site... Bear in mind that at least one entry is NOT in that roadmap. We paradox folks are sneaky like that...
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Post by doctorflea on Nov 30, 2009 13:54:50 GMT
Very generously the person I got it from included a "road map" of the suggested order in which to read the entries! Ah yes.... that was an Easter Egg on the old Faction Paradox site... Bear in mind that at least one entry is NOT in that roadmap. We paradox folks are sneaky like that... Yes, I was warned about that
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Post by Corone on Nov 30, 2009 16:40:47 GMT
I love Faction Paradox too. I keep nagging Dom to let me do a book on it for the game, but we're already got way too much to get through at the moment!
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Post by doctorflea on Nov 30, 2009 17:02:45 GMT
...but we're already got way too much to get through at the moment! You tease!!!
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Post by Null and Void on Nov 30, 2009 17:07:20 GMT
...but we're already got way too much to get through at the moment! You tease!!! Yeah Corone, don't you know you shouldn't bait the bears like that? That being said, I think its is *so* proper and fitting that Faction Paradox be done as an RPG... That cultural infiltration is going along nicely, and any semblence of a Faction Paradox RPG supplement to a training manual is entirely in your imagination.... Faction PAradox does not exist after all. This message brought to you by Faction Paradox.
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Post by Corone on Dec 1, 2009 18:13:55 GMT
You tease!!! Yeah Corone, don't you know you shouldn't bait the bears like that? That being said, I think its is *so* proper and fitting that Faction Paradox be done as an RPG... That cultural infiltration is going along nicely, and any semblence of a Faction Paradox RPG supplement to a training manual is entirely in your imagination.... Faction PAradox does not exist after all. This message brought to you by Faction Paradox. Well, with 30 years of excellent TV show to cover, it should be obvious there is a lot on the way :-) Mind you, as with the Faction, only the lies are true. :-)
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GMSkarka
2nd Incarnation
Not Posting In Any Official Capacity
Posts: 11
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Post by GMSkarka on Dec 1, 2009 20:01:18 GMT
You know, maybe a separate company, like -- oh, I dunno, say ADAMANT ENTERTAINMENT should license Faction Paradox...
...and then ask Angus and Dom nicely if we might be able to use the game system that appears in DWAITAS....
...and release a completely separate, not-at-all-associated with the official WHO license product, which would be distributed into game stores via Adamant's print partnership with Cubicle 7....
Jus' sayin'. It's a thought, innit?
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Post by Null and Void on Dec 1, 2009 20:16:43 GMT
You know, maybe a separate company, like -- oh, I dunno, say ADAMANT ENTERTAINMENT should license Faction Paradox... ...and then ask Angus and Dom nicely if we might be able to use the game system that appears in DWAITAS.... ...and release a completely separate, not-at-all-associated with the official WHO license product, which would be distributed into game stores via Adamant's print partnership with Cubicle 7.... Jus' sayin'. It's a thought, innit? And a very nice thought it is too... I just wish there were someone from say, Adamant Entertainment, for the sake of arguement who was on this board and could see how intered in Faction Paradox people really were... Then this theoretical person might approach his superiors, who might in turn check with Laurence Miles about the licensing of such a thing... I would say such a thought might be on to something, yes...
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Post by doctorflea on Dec 2, 2009 21:21:00 GMT
You know, maybe a separate company, like -- oh, I dunno, say ADAMANT ENTERTAINMENT should license Faction Paradox... ...and then ask Angus and Dom nicely if we might be able to use the game system that appears in DWAITAS.... ...and release a completely separate, not-at-all-associated with the official WHO license product, which would be distributed into game stores via Adamant's print partnership with Cubicle 7.... Jus' sayin'. It's a thought, innit? Could this, then, hypothetically open the door to other Who/Not Who franchises like Bernice Summerfield, Iris Wildthyme etc
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Post by allenshock on Dec 7, 2009 19:47:25 GMT
You know, maybe a separate company, like -- oh, I dunno, say ADAMANT ENTERTAINMENT should license Faction Paradox... ...and then ask Angus and Dom nicely if we might be able to use the game system that appears in DWAITAS.... ...and release a completely separate, not-at-all-associated with the official WHO license product, which would be distributed into game stores via Adamant's print partnership with Cubicle 7.... Jus' sayin'. It's a thought, innit? It's an excellent thought, actually. I hereby suggest you pursue it Allen
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Post by Kit on Dec 7, 2009 20:19:41 GMT
You know, maybe a separate company, like -- oh, I dunno, say ADAMANT ENTERTAINMENT should license Faction Paradox... ...and then ask Angus and Dom nicely if we might be able to use the game system that appears in DWAITAS.... ...and release a completely separate, not-at-all-associated with the official WHO license product, which would be distributed into game stores via Adamant's print partnership with Cubicle 7.... Jus' sayin'. It's a thought, innit? I think its a brilliant idea. I'd buy it even though I only have a passing familiarity with Faction Paradox.
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Post by Null and Void on Dec 7, 2009 23:37:15 GMT
I think its a brilliant idea. I'd buy it even though I only have a passing familiarity with Faction Paradox. Thats ok! Even those with a passing familiarity buying it could give it a nice boost to the people who have never heard of it before... then that will encourage Lawrence Miles to write more, and that will make more of a market for the game, and then the cycle starts over and everything gets more popular exponentially! *cough* Or I could be just over-enthusiastic...
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Post by doctorflea on Dec 7, 2009 23:40:39 GMT
I think its a brilliant idea. I'd buy it even though I only have a passing familiarity with Faction Paradox. Thats ok! Even those with a passing familiarity buying it could give it a nice boost to the people who have never heard of it before... then that will encourage Lawrence Miles to write more, and that will make more of a market for the game, and then the cycle starts over and everything gets more popular exponentially! *cough* Or I could be just over-enthusiastic... As a relative newcomer to all-things Faction Paradox (in the last 12 months) and the glory of Lawrence Miles' imagination, I'd second that over-enthusiastic hope!
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Post by Curufea on Dec 9, 2009 5:24:52 GMT
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Post by Null and Void on Dec 9, 2009 13:23:00 GMT
Curufea, I just want to say your site and notes are awesome, and have been a great inspiration to me. As a matter of fact, I was the one who dropped you a note the other day about the Book of the War Apocrypha. Thanks again by the way!
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Post by Corone on Dec 9, 2009 14:54:19 GMT
You know, maybe a separate company, like -- oh, I dunno, say ADAMANT ENTERTAINMENT should license Faction Paradox... ...and then ask Angus and Dom nicely if we might be able to use the game system that appears in DWAITAS.... ...and release a completely separate, not-at-all-associated with the official WHO license product, which would be distributed into game stores via Adamant's print partnership with Cubicle 7.... Jus' sayin'. It's a thought, innit? Possibly a good way to upset the BBC and lose us the licence though :-) Anyway, Garath of Adamant is a huge Who fan and he'll want to write for the main game too! Faction Paradox is a licencing nightmare, if you want the whole thing. You not only need the main licence from Mr Miles, but also some access to classic Who for Sontarrens and the Peking Homonculous. Those arn't too much of a problem, but the licence spreads into the big finish audios and the novels, as well as having a couple of novels that have sub-licenced as well. Without everything a Faction book would be missing something. I'm sure a bit of negotiation would be able to get all the parts together. I'll be nagging Dom and Angus to do just that as I've been talking to them about this since before they went after Who. However, 30 years of Who already gives us more than enough to deliver many supplements, and they want to cover the basics before going into the obscure and bizzarre, which makes sense. I'd like to think we'll have a book one day, but it won't be for a while yet. Mind you, if they don't go for it, I'll probably write it as a fan project anyway!
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Post by Null and Void on Dec 9, 2009 15:29:22 GMT
You know, maybe a separate company, like -- oh, I dunno, say ADAMANT ENTERTAINMENT should license Faction Paradox... ...and then ask Angus and Dom nicely if we might be able to use the game system that appears in DWAITAS.... ...and release a completely separate, not-at-all-associated with the official WHO license product, which would be distributed into game stores via Adamant's print partnership with Cubicle 7.... Jus' sayin'. It's a thought, innit? Possibly a good way to upset the BBC and lose us the licence though :-) Anyway, Garath of Adamant is a huge Who fan and he'll want to write for the main game too! Faction Paradox is a licencing nightmare, if you want the whole thing. You not only need the main licence from Mr Miles, but also some access to classic Who for Sontarrens and the Peking Homonculous. Those arn't too much of a problem, but the licence spreads into the big finish audios and the novels, as well as having a couple of novels that have sub-licenced as well. Without everything a Faction book would be missing something. I'm sure a bit of negotiation would be able to get all the parts together. I'll be nagging Dom and Angus to do just that as I've been talking to them about this since before they went after Who. However, 30 years of Who already gives us more than enough to deliver many supplements, and they want to cover the basics before going into the obscure and bizzarre, which makes sense. I'd like to think we'll have a book one day, but it won't be for a while yet. Mind you, if they don't go for it, I'll probably write it as a fan project anyway! I disagree... The Sontarans appear in 1 story (The first 2 audio adventures) and the Peking Homonculus gets an oblique passing mention in another of the audio stories. They could be dropped from the property without any real problems. Secondly, the license belongs to Lawrence Miles, and he in turn licenses to Big Finish, Magic Bullet, Mad Norwegian, and whatever the new publishing house is (its name escapes me.). Miles has the rights to license it anywhere he wants, I would imagine, and its JUST different enough that the BBC can't sue... otherwise they would have already. The BBC is concerned with their Brand (i.e. Doctor Who) and how *it* is treated. Since Faction Paradox is not directly connected to Doctor Who, and is its own brand, I have doubts they would go after it. Mind you, professionally published, or fan published, I'd get it regardless.
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Post by Corone on Dec 9, 2009 20:05:02 GMT
I disagree... The Sontarans appear in 1 story (The first 2 audio adventures) and the Peking Homonculus gets an oblique passing mention in another of the audio stories. They could be dropped from the property without any real problems. Secondly, the license belongs to Lawrence Miles, and he in turn licenses to Big Finish, Magic Bullet, Mad Norwegian, and whatever the new publishing house is (its name escapes me.). Miles has the rights to license it anywhere he wants, I would imagine, and its JUST different enough that the BBC can't sue... otherwise they would have already. The BBC is concerned with their Brand (i.e. Doctor Who) and how *it* is treated. Since Faction Paradox is not directly connected to Doctor Who, and is its own brand, I have doubts they would go after it. Mind you, professionally published, or fan published, I'd get it regardless. Personally, I'd rather do a book using the complete history, which is convoluted enough. Sontarrens are pretty prevalent in the audio books to my mind, and Osirans make up a serious proportion of the second series of audios. However, if C7 have access to Classic Who that isn't an issue. Many mentions of the Faction appeared in novels Miles had nothing to do with (much to his annoyance I believe) which are things he won't be able to license since he doesn't own them. He probably doesn't have the rights to his own Who novels either (Alien Bodies, Interference) making the waters murkier. While you could do a book based purely on works stamped 'Faction Paradox' it would feel rather a missed opportunity if we couldn't do a book that used everything. Whatever the case, it will be a long time before we see such a book. However, I'm certainly not going to let Angus and Dom forget its out there :-)
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Post by Escher on Dec 9, 2009 22:14:41 GMT
I've not read anything to do with FP yet.
1. Is it good and
2. What do you suggest for a first-time reader to dig into in the series?
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Post by Null and Void on Dec 9, 2009 23:33:50 GMT
Personally, I'd rather do a book using the complete history, which is convoluted enough. Sontarrens are pretty prevalent in the audio books to my mind, and Osirans make up a serious proportion of the second series of audios. However, if C7 have access to Classic Who that isn't an issue. Many mentions of the Faction appeared in novels Miles had nothing to do with (much to his annoyance I believe) which are things he won't be able to license since he doesn't own them. He probably doesn't have the rights to his own Who novels either (Alien Bodies, Interference) making the waters murkier. While you could do a book based purely on works stamped 'Faction Paradox' it would feel rather a missed opportunity if we couldn't do a book that used everything. Whatever the case, it will be a long time before we see such a book. However, I'm certainly not going to let Angus and Dom forget its out there :-) Oh, The Osirians have a BIG part in the second series, but apart from the first story the Sontarans don't really show up. The problem is that many of the creatures are still technically owned by their creators... the Daleks for instance are still licensed to the Terry Nation estate, and I think the Sontarans still belong to Robert Holmes' estate... They could be licensed seperately from Doctor Who. I think the main novel that Lawrence Miles had an issue with was 'The Ancestor Cell', which was... well, pretty bad... I think the others, especially the Mad Nowegian books, were done with his complete approval. As for using everything, its a wonderful thought! But... impractical, I think, as it would probably end up being 1000 pages. But we will live in hope.
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Post by Null and Void on Dec 9, 2009 23:43:52 GMT
I've not read anything to do with FP yet. 1. Is it good and 2. What do you suggest for a first-time reader to dig into in the series? Its a mixed bag of goods that some people love and some people hate. It requires a heck of a lot of thinking, I'll say that much! But, since I love the sort of things that mess with your head, I love FP by extension. But, as to your questions... The Eighth Doctor Adventure called 'Alien Bodies' by Lawrence Miles and published by BBC books is their first appearance. There are a number of them that appear afterwards, 'Interference' being one of the Big ones (2 volumes to that one.) It all finishes up in 'The Ancestor Cell', which Miles hated, and is not written by him. Its one of those divisive books, that a lot of people dislike. However, 'The Book of the War', edited by Lawrence Miles more or less outlines the universe of Faction Paradox and seperates it from the Doctor Who Universe... Gallifrey becomes the Homeworld, the Time Lords and the High Coucil becomes The Great Houses, TARDISes become Time Ships, etc... Its a fun read and a goldmine of ideas. Most of them weird. The Audio productions that Big Finish did are also good for a setup, particularly the first two: The Eleven Day Empire and Shadow Play. Those are getting hard to find, but the scripts for them are still floating about... I know I have my copies of them.
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Post by doctorflea on Dec 10, 2009 0:33:09 GMT
The Eighth Doctor Adventure called 'Alien Bodies' by Lawrence Miles and published by BBC books is their first appearance. There are a number of them that appear afterwards, 'Interference' being one of the Big ones (2 volumes to that one.) It all finishes up in 'The Ancestor Cell', which Miles hated, and is not written by him. Its one of those divisive books, that a lot of people dislike. I can highly recommend Alien Bodies - it's an incredible sci-fi read, even outside of the Faction Paradox characters. www.heropress.net/2009/11/book-of-month-alien-bodies.htmlI can also highly recommend the two issues of the Faction Paradox comic (from Image) - long out of print, but they pop up on eBay pretty often and a lot of comic shops have them in their back issue sections. www.heropress.net/2009/09/top-of-pile-faction-paradox-1.html
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Post by Curufea on Dec 10, 2009 0:52:27 GMT
Faction Paradox is meta-Doctor Who. The books introduce concepts similar to the relationship between Pure Maths and Applied Maths. They delve into how the Who Universe functions and explain such concepts as the inside of the TARDIS, Block Transfer Computation and Biodata. You can read the books just to blow your mind with those, and not worry about any of the Faction Paradox itself, keeping with the main Doctor Who mythos for your games. My problem with the idea of Conceptual Space that Lawrence and others (including the writer of Logopolis) have introduced is that it's narratively equivalent to Magic and suffers from the same problems. Mainly - where does it stop. There is a terrible difficulty in deciding where and how Magic stops being an explanation for things. An example is - the TARDIS control room. If the inside of a TARDIS is a mathematical formula in conceptual space - why do there need to be controls in this particular configuration. Is it like the 5th Doctor says in Time Crash? Just a "Desktop Theme"? Is it all there just so the mere mortals (like Time Lords) have a tactile interface into the maths? It explains why there is the occasional State of Temporal Grace - but it doesn't explain why things break down, why the TARDIS needs fuel or particular electronic components. Unless I suppose there needs to be a mathematical equivalent and the translation occurs as soon as you enter. XKCD explains it best, I guess-
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Post by Null and Void on Dec 10, 2009 1:16:50 GMT
Faction Paradox is meta-Doctor Who. The books introduce concepts similar to the relationship between Pure Maths and Applied Maths. They delve into how the Who Universe functions and explain such concepts as the inside of the TARDIS, Block Transfer Computation and Biodata. You can read the books just to blow your mind with those, and not worry about any of the Faction Paradox itself, keeping with the main Doctor Who mythos for your games. My problem with the idea of Conceptual Space that Lawrence and others (including the writer of Logopolis) have introduced is that it's narratively equivalent to Magic and suffers from the same problems. Mainly - where does it stop. There is a terrible difficulty in deciding where and how Magic stops being an explanation for things. An example is - the TARDIS control room. If the inside of a TARDIS is a mathematical formula in conceptual space - why do there need to be controls in this particular configuration. Is it like the 5th Doctor says in Time Crash? Just a "Desktop Theme"? Is it all there just so the mere mortals (like Time Lords) have a tactile interface into the maths? It explains why there is the occasional State of Temporal Grace - but it doesn't explain why things break down, why the TARDIS needs fuel or particular electronic components. Unless I suppose there needs to be a mathematical equivalent and the translation occurs as soon as you enter. XKCD explains it best, I guess- On the other hand, conceptual space might not have an end at all. Perhaps that is the underlying truth of things, that there actually is *no* interface required for anything, and that what we see and experience is nothing more than a tactile hologram projected onto the surface of a black hole. Physical items such as tools or weapons or technology, or even biological bodies are nothing more than mnemonic device with which we access that rather pure realm of mathematics... After all, Clarke's Law states any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, a correllary states that any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology, and a third, which I add, says if magic and technology are sufficiently advanced, you don't actually NEED them... But as to the role of mathematics... what if mathematics is in fact just another sort of technology that is a gateway to something else entirely. Your example of Logopolis should be extended into Castrovalva... where the mathematical representations become free and independant of what they originally were. What was the quote? "You made us man of evil, but we are FREE!" Nice comic, by the way.
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