Shame the writers forgot this little tidbit.

[senko]

Was watching Dark Water today and the whole emotional confrontation between Clara and the Doctor over the key's really loses a lot of its impact when you can't forget that previously they have both opened the TARDIS doors by just clicking their fingers.

[Catsmate]

Ah, continuity...

[Catsmate]

Hell, even the First Doctor managed to open his TARDIS without a key, after the Monk gimmicked it on Tigus.

[senko]

Never actually seen those episodes which is a shame because it sounds interesting going by the summaries.

[Corone]

We'll have to remember that when we do the 12th Doctor Book!

Personally, I'd suggest that the Doctor can only open the doors with a click of the fingers as the keys are essentially 'wireless'.
Anyone can put a key in the lock, but if you have owned and imprinted a key (as you might with the tardis itself) you might use a key without putting it in the lock.
So even Clara can click her fingers to open the door as 'an attuned user'.
But if you lose all the keys or you're not carrying one at all, you can't open the door at all.

I'd put it down to the fact that they look like keys in the same way the TARDIS looks like a police box

[senko]

In that case you also need to remember the TTC mentions doing the click/open trick as somehting you can buy when writing up the 12th. Neat theory but I think it'd be better to just go with Clara forget that detail in her emotional/suggestible state as it isn't something he does often.

[Stormcrow]

Or you can just say, "Opening the TARDIS with a snap of the fingers is a dumb Moffat idea, so I'm going to completely ignore it."

[senko]

That works too, in which case dissalow the tricks minor trait from the time travellers companion.s

[Stormcrow]

I actually ignore a whole lot from the show, whenever the writers start fiddling with the background in ways I consider intrusive. I completely ignore the whole "six pilots" thing—utter nonsense. The TARDIS flies crazy because the Doctor's not very careful about flying it. I ignore the existence of Idris in The Doctor's Wife.

The moon is not an egg for a giant space-dragon!

The point is that the writers—especially under Moffat, who hijacked the show to satisfy his own uncontrolled fanboy-ism—aren't reporting reality when they make up stupid stuff. They're just making up stupid stuff. A GM should feel free to jettison anything stupid. Obeying "canon" isn't important; making good adventures is.

Or to put it another way: you're the writer now. You can ignore continuity and make up stupid stuff just as much as any writer on TV. Make the game your ideal Doctor Who.

[Catsmate]

Jul 20, 2016 13:44:51 GMT Stormcrow said:

I actually ignore a whole lot from the show, whenever the writers start fiddling with the background in ways I consider intrusive. I completely ignore the whole "six pilots" thing—utter nonsense. The TARDIS flies crazy because the Doctor's not very careful about flying it. I ignore the existence of Idris in The Doctor's Wife.

The moon is not an egg for a giant space-dragon!

The point is that the writers—especially under Moffat, who hijacked the show to satisfy his own uncontrolled fanboy-ism—aren't reporting reality when they make up stupid stuff. They're just making up stupid stuff. A GM should feel free to jettison anything stupid. Obeying "canon" isn't important; making good adventures is.

Or to put it another way: you're the writer now. You can ignore continuity and make up stupid stuff just as much as any writer on TV. Make the game your ideal Doctor Who.

Absolutely.

[Marnal]

I'm an inclusivist, so I enjoy it the weirder the whoniverse gets .

I built an entire 'end of the Silurian age' story around the moon being a dragon egg. It nicely solves several bits of classic Who continuity snarls and much more interesting then the moon being... [wait for it] ...a rock.

That said I fully support this statement from Stormcrow:
"you're the writer now. You can ignore continuity and make up stupid stuff just as much as any writer on TV. Make the game your ideal Doctor Who."

[Stormcrow]

What have you got against rocks?!

[senko]

I'm more interested in why you don't like the 6 pilot's bit makes more sense to me than having one person running around a control console with 6 panels. I mean don't get me wrong there's plenty of stuff I'd ignore (most of the episodes with Clara Oswald for a start and the technology discrepancy between what 19xx TV producers thought was futuristic and what we think is) but that's one of the things that worked for me. Even modern planes have a pilot, co-pilot and navigator so I can see a much more complex TARDIS having multiple time lords expected on those panels.

[Stormcrow]

I don't like the six pilots bit because it makes no sense. The TARDIS console isn't six panels of piloting controls; it's got everything from computer access to environmental sensors to operating the scanner to opening the door. The TARDIS doesn't always shake while in flight; in fact during the classic series that was a sign of something seriously wrong.

I also don't like it because it was really just a transparent, throwaway excuse to get all the companions standing around the console for an end-of-series, RTD-is-leaving, feel-good moment.

Oh, I also ignore the line by River Song that the TARDIS engine noise happens because the Doctor "leaves the brakes on." Go ahead and spit on fandom while you're at it, Moffat.

Neither am I a fan of his obsession with Time Lords changing sex when they regenerate.

[Catsmate]

Jul 21, 2016 3:30:42 GMT Stormcrow said:

I don't like the six pilots bit because it makes no sense. The TARDIS console isn't six panels of piloting controls; it's got everything from computer access to environmental sensors to operating the scanner to opening the door.

Absolutely, it really makes no sense whatever and I've always ignored this particular piece of stupidity.

Jul 21, 2016 3:30:42 GMT Stormcrow said:

The TARDIS doesn't always shake while in flight; in fact during the classic series that was a sign of something seriously wrong.

Also agreed.

Jul 21, 2016 3:30:42 GMT Stormcrow said:

I also don't like it because it was really just a transparent, throwaway excuse to get all the companions standing around the console for an end-of-series, RTD-is-leaving, feel-good moment.

Again, utterly correct.

Jul 21, 2016 3:30:42 GMT Stormcrow said:

Oh, I also ignore the line by River Song that the TARDIS engine noise happens because the Doctor "leaves the brakes on." Go ahead and spit on fandom while you're at it, Moffat.

Neither am I a fan of his obsession with Time Lords changing sex when they regenerate.

[Catsmate]

Jul 20, 2016 17:11:51 GMT Stormcrow said:

What have you got against rocks?!

Exactly, it's racist! Think of the Ogri...

[senko]

Personally I treated six pilots as a full operational complement of crew for proper control of the TARDIS not specifically pilots. That is one fully trained time lord can fly it by themselves but it involves a certain degree of running around if something goes wrong. On the other hand you have the 6 "pilots" who all have their own personal areas of expertise. To nab the Mark IX console layout from the technical index . . .

Panel 1: Navigation.
Panel 2: Helm and Dematerialization Systems.
Panel 3: Diagnostic and Internal Ship Systems.
Panel 4: Fabrication & Information Systems.
Panel 5: Communications & Exterior Monitoring.
Panel 6: Mechanical & Master Control.

So if your flying around in normal space the person on panel 2 and panel 5 are going to be doing most of the work with the guy on 2 flying around while the girl on 5 keeps an eye on the larger area to ensure they don't fly into a passing spaceship. Same with panel 3 whoever's on that is normally going to have a fairly easy job unless something goes wrong when they'll be looking into it. To borrow from another series you have the starship enterprise with Kirk as captain, Sulu as helm, Spock as science officer, Checkov as navigation, Uhuru as communications, Scotty as Engineering Chief and so on. Any crew member can double for another in a pinch (and in the new series that big black vengence from into darkness could be entirely flown by 1 person) but they have their areas of expertise. Sulu is better at flying the ship then Checkov, Spock is better at science than Kirk, Uhuru is better at communications with other species than Scotty and so on. So lets make them time lords Kirk can fly and control the TARDIS by himself but its much easier, more relaxing and has less chance of the many, many problems caused by the Doctor missing an important warning light if each of the consoles has its own crew member or trainee/companion monitoring it. Of course this could be like a modern aircraft as well. On older aircraft you had dedicated navigators on commerical aircraft (usually 2 of them) to guide aircraft in no radio zones, now that position is gone and replaced by a combination of better equipment and the captain/first officer taking over those duties. The type 90 only had one pilot wired into the systems going by the technical index.

Still to each their own and I do agree on the TARDIS shaking (if the interior is isolated from the outside world why would moving the shell/interface cause the interior to shake around. The hand brake sound as well considering he wasn't even consistent with that. The time lords changing sex would bother me less if the early doctor wasn't so sexist in fact I recall one book where he was grumpy because women were becoming too independant and he liked the older female companions who weren't.

Then again its something that's annoyed me about Capaldi's "Your human, I can't tell if your old, young, attractive or ugly." Huamns and Gallifreyans are identical in appearance and not all Gallifreyans are time lords or are you saying he can see the two hearts, respitory bypass and other internal organs only? I'd have more luck accpeting a "I'm 2,000+ years old and had an education system designed to push my race to the point it burns out your human minds trying to comprehend our knowledge. To me your a child and a particuarly stupid one at that I mean if I told you the sum of x to the value of the polarity reversal for a netruonio decaying at x to the negative n over 98 multiplied by the average mass of a g class star is what? You'd have no idea how to begin working it out but that's a basic problem for an 8 year old child where i come from and don't get me started on your popular music."

Hmmm now I've got myself wondering if time lords could duplicate all the tech we see in the new series and other shows do the later TARDIS's have the ability to make holodecks, nanogenes, teleporters and the like?

[Marnal]

Gallifreyans tend to do everything in 6s. And the EU speaks of TARDISes being used by research teams, so a 6 man research team seems plausible. Organizing the console the way it is means that one person can easily man it. But it also means that 6 people can easily work together during a crisis without tripping over each other. Thus, to my mind, a fully crewed TARDIS has 1 Senior Time Lord [who owns the TARIDS] and 5 Apprentice Time Lords. You don't need all 6 stations manned to fly the TARDIS any more then you need to have the com and tactical stations manned on fly the Enterprise. But in an emergency its nice to be able to have someone at those stations.

Stormcrow said: "Oh, I also ignore the line by River Song that the TARDIS engine noise happens because the Doctor "leaves the brakes on."

But it nicely explains an inconsistency in the classic series. During materializations some times the dimensional stabilizers can be heard inside the TARDIS and sometimes they cant. The revelation of the hand brake nicely explains why some materializations are silent [from the inside] and some are noisy. Basically the Doctor takes the breaks off when he feels like it. Rather then contradict things it actually explains prior contradictions.

I don't have a problem with the sex-change regenerations. I also like the idea the audios put forth that they tend to occur when the Gallifreyan dies in a suicidal way and their on unconscious tries to find a form that's radically different to prevent that behavior in the future.

[Stormcrow]

Jul 26, 2016 17:23:46 GMT Marnal said:

Stormcrow said: "Oh, I also ignore the line by River Song that the TARDIS engine noise happens because the Doctor "leaves the brakes on."

But it nicely explains an inconsistency in the classic series. During materializations some times the dimensional stabilizers can be heard inside the TARDIS and sometimes they cant. The revelation of the hand brake nicely explains why some materializations are silent [from the inside] and some are noisy. Basically the Doctor takes the breaks off when he feels like it. Rather then contradict things it actually explains prior contradictions.

Then why do other TARDISes make the same noise? Do the Master and the Rani and Romana all leave the brake on? Romana especially makes a show of smooth piloting, yet it makes the same noise for her.

This is like forehead-ridges for Klingons: it doesn't need to be explained. It was better unexplained, unmentioned, and essentially unnoticed by the characters. It happens because it's TV where they just make stuff up.

I don't have a problem with the sex-change regenerations.

I don't have a problem with sex-change regenerations per se; I have a problem with Moffat's obsession with them. He's been doing them since The Curse of Fatal Death. Every time he does it or references it it's to say, "Ooh, lookie what I did!" He's stroking his own ego, going for the biggest shock-value he can find.

I also like the idea the audios put forth that they tend to occur when the Gallifreyan dies in a suicidal way and their on unconscious tries to find a form that's radically different to prevent that behavior in the future.

I hated that Unbound episode. That's a silly excuse, too.

[Marnal]

Stormcrow said:
"Then why do other TARDISes make the same noise? Do the Master and the Rani and Romana all leave the brake on? Romana especially makes a show of smooth piloting, yet it makes the same noise for her."

It doesn't. In all of the cases where those people use a TARDIS the sound is never heard on the inside of the ship. Its only heard on the outside. But when the Doctor's piloting it goes back and forth on whether it can be heard on the inside or not. Moffat's new bit of continuity could explain this apparent contradiction.

"This is like forehead-ridges for Klingons: it doesn't need to be explained."

So wait, you didn't like addition of ridges to the Klingons because it split fandom or you are fine with it because the contradiction doesn't need to be explained?

"...going for the biggest shock-value he can find."

I would argue that that is ONE of the mandates of a good Dr Who writer.

"I hated that Unbound episode."

I thought that particular story was dumb [the ones with David Warner however were amazing!] But I did like the tweak that the gender swap could be a subconscious rejection of the actions taking by that previous incarnation.

[senko]

Jul 26, 2016 17:23:46 GMT Marnal said:

I don't have a problem with the sex-change regenerations. I also like the idea the audios put forth that they tend to occur when the Gallifreyan dies in a suicidal way and their on unconscious tries to find a form that's radically different to prevent that behavior in the future.

Forgive me for laughing at this but considering that chancellery officer changed sex after the doctor shot him it brought to mind the image that he considered opposing the doctor even verbally to be suicidal behaviour and I was entertained by the idea the head of the Gallifreyan police/army feels that way.

[Stormcrow]

Jul 27, 2016 18:00:40 GMT Marnal said:

Stormcrow said:
"Then why do other TARDISes make the same noise? Do the Master and the Rani and Romana all leave the brake on? Romana especially makes a show of smooth piloting, yet it makes the same noise for her."

It doesn't. In all of the cases where those people use a TARDIS the sound is never heard on the inside of the ship. Its only heard on the outside. But when the Doctor's piloting it goes back and forth on whether it can be heard on the inside or not. Moffat's new bit of continuity could explain this apparent contradiction.

"It's not supposed to make that noise. You leave the brakes on."

Why would this lead to the noise being heard on the outside but not the inside? It's not supposed to make that noise, she says.

In one line, Moffat tells us the signature sound of a TARDIS we've been hearing for fifty years is wrong. For a laugh.

"This is like forehead-ridges for Klingons: it doesn't need to be explained."

So wait, you didn't like addition of ridges to the Klingons because it split fandom or you are fine with it because the contradiction doesn't need to be explained?

I'm fine with the addition and I'm fine with the lack of explanation. Just like I'm fine with the styrofoam rocks and wooden control consoles. Explaining why Klingons didn't have ridges and then did have them is like trying to explain why the Enterprise spent five years exploring planets with styrofoam rocks and then moved on to planets with real rocks. It breaks your suspension of disbelief, which you were able to maintain all through the years of styrofoam rocks because the story was good.

The writers of the Deep Space Nine episode "Trials and Tribble-ations" knew this well. When the Deep Space Nine characters, having been sent back in time to the scene of "The Trouble with Tribbles," see original-style Klingons, they demand an explanation from Worf. "Yes, they are Klingons," he says, clearly miffed. "And it is a long story." This is the writers saying, "Nyah, nyah! We're not going to go there!" when they HAD to explain why the old-style Klingons around them didn't look like the new-style Klingons on their own show.

"...going for the biggest shock-value he can find."

I would argue that that is ONE of the mandates of a good Dr Who writer.

Oh, no! Nononono! Shock-value is good for a cliffhanger, but in general a good Doctor Who story has slowly rising tension as discoveries are made, with a final reveal and resolution. The reveal might be shocking, but it's the culmination of the rising tension.

Moffat, on the other hand, simply looks for the most outrageous left-turns he can find and throws them in whenever he's running out of ideas. He's great at creating situations so unresolvable even HE can't figure out how to get the characters out of it sensibly. So he goes for the deux ex machina or the "I was lying the whole time, I could have fixed this right away, but I was playing a clever game" ploy. That's not good storytelling.

Moffat's stories under Russel T. Davies are some of the best of Doctor Who. I suspect this is because he was put on a leash and was beholden to editing.

"I hated that Unbound episode."

I thought that particular story was dumb [the ones with David Warner however were amazing!] But I did like the tweak that the gender swap could be a subconscious rejection of the actions taking by that previous incarnation.

Nope, I thought that was dumb too. A throwaway excuse to explain why the Doctor was female, which was really the only reason why this story exists.

[Marnal]

Stormcrow said:
"Why would this lead to the noise being heard on the outside but not the inside? It's not supposed to make that noise, she says."

They were standing inside the TARDIS and discussing the lack of hearing the noise. This inconsistency has bugged me for years. I never even considered the possibility that the Doctor was complaining that you can't hear the sound OUTSIDE the TARDIS.
Given that the outside and inside are located in different universes there's no reason to automatically assume that what is heard on the outside will always be heard on the inside.

In short, your interpretation makes it looks like Moffat is breaking continuity and mine makes it look like he's fix past transgressions. The issue probably says more about our respective feelings towards Moffat [and Dr Who continuity in general] then it does about the scene in question.

"I'm fine with the addition and I'm fine with the lack of explanation. "

So minor contradictions in continuity don't bother you [which is pretty much a requirement for being a Dr Who fan ]. So why the big deal about the 'hand-break' issue [which is only a contradiction if you choose to interpret it that way]?

"...but in general a good Doctor Who story has slowly rising tension as discoveries are made, with a final reveal and resolution. The reveal might be shocking, but it's the culmination of the rising tension."

It appears we disagree on a fundamental level as to what makes Dr Who different from, say Star Trek.

For me, good Dr Who is about putting things/ideas/concepts together that do not belong together to illicit feelings of surrealism, horror, humor and yes shock. And then the Doctor's investigation of the world gradually reveals the cause and logic behind this seeming impossibility. But the more of these contradictions you can introduce [and eventually rationalize], the more the story will feel like Dr Who.

"Moffat's stories under Russel T. Davies are some of the best of Doctor Who. I suspect this is because he was put on a leash and was beholden to editing."

I agree with you 100% on this point. [Though I've always thought that RT Davis was the MASTER of creating situations so unresolvable even HE can't figure out how to get the characters out of it sensibly.]

[senko]

Maybe River was just having a go at the Doctor and it wasn't the handbrake she used but rather the sound dampeners installed so TARDIS pilots don't have to listen to the loud dematerialization noise whenever they fly somewhere.