Perception Checks

[doctorrules]

When characters want to search, what is the roll?  i seem to recall that it's actually two attributes, but i can't find where I read that for the life of me.

Thanks!

[misterharry]

Apr 17, 2016 18:38:43 GMT doctorrules said:

When characters want to search, what is the roll?  i seem to recall that it's actually two attributes, but i can't find where I read that for the life of me.

Thanks!

From page 60 of the Capaldi edition of the core rulebook:-

If the character is not actively looking for something and the Gamemaster wants to give them a chance to see the giant bug before it attacks, they will have to make an attribute-only roll, usually Awareness + Ingenuity.

However, if they are searching books for a clue, looking into medical records for information, or something similar, the character is actively looking and their skills come into play - in this case it’s Awareness paired with a skill that reflects the subject.

[Marnal]

Which strikes me as odd. If the character [who has a very low skill in Tech] is consciously looking for a lost gadget on the beach they are more then likely to be out rolled by the someone who's just wandering by.

My house rule is, non-active perception checks are just 2d6+Awareness.
Active search checks are 2d6+Awareness+Ingenuity.

[olegrand]

My "Temporal Toybox" includes some optional rules which tackle this very issue:

storygame.free.fr/TOYBOX.pdf

(it's on page 7)

[Escher]

Apr 19, 2016 15:03:22 GMT Marnal said:

Which strikes me as odd. If the character [who has a very low skill in Tech] is consciously looking for a lost gadget on the beach they are more then likely to be out rolled by the someone who's just wandering by.

No they aren't. I think this is a bit confusing because of the wording used in the books:


Quote:
"However, if they are searching books for a clue, looking into medical records for information, or something similar, the character is actively looking and their skills come into play - in this case it’s Awareness paired with a skill that reflects the subject."

More accurately, 'Active' = factual research only. The mistake is that the books state 'not actively looking' and 'actively searching' as if there is a passive and active perception. There is not. We fixate on the phrase 'actively looking' and ignore the 'searching books' part. There is literally no 'Passive' or 'Active' perception as such. Just perception and searching for facts using relevant skills.

Active looking (e.g. research) = Searching books, records, doing research etc. for FACTS or INFO. (Awareness + Relevant Skill)
Normal Perception = what you immediately see, smell, hear, taste and if you are searching for something that is not facts, info etc. (Awareness + Ingenuity + Keen Senses)


I'm surprised this hasn't been addressed before. I think there's a Perception Filter on that paragraph! Certainly a syntax error.

Olegrand, you may have to omit that section from Toybox...

[bilbo]

But I'm pretty sure I've seen in many of the published adventures statements like (and I'm paraphrasing as I don't have them in front of me) "Awareness + Ingenuity or Awareness + technology" for various things to notice. I personally just use whatever makes the most sense and if its a choice whatever is higher, seems to solve all those issues as simply as possible. Another way I think was used in the Medicine Man adventure (maybe others) was to use a different target number depending on if you were using an appropriate specialized skill vs just generic perception (if applicable), for instance to notice a robot acting abnormally or outside its programming maybe something like "Awareness+Ingenuity (v15) or Awareness+Technology (v12) for those familiar with this type of robots" i.e. it's something anyone could notice, but if you're a tech-head it might be easier....

I don't know, just some food for thought.

[Rassilon]

The trouble here are the words Actively Looking , which, without reading the whole section in context, suggest there are two kinds of perception, passive and active. There are not.

It's more confusing because of the phrase 'If the character is not actively looking for something', but then it specifically refers directly to actively searching:

However, if they are searching books for a clue, looking into medical records for information, or something similar, the character is actively looking and their skills come into play - in this case it’s Awareness paired with a skill that reflects the subject.

They key logic here is books, records or similar. Not scanning across the horizon or searching for anything else other than factual knowledge.

I've personally made that mistake and no doubt many have. Actually, it's remarkably bizarre how this slipped through for so long.


For future iterations of the rules, those words should be changed to actively researching.

[bilbo]

It is confusing. Then you have various iterations of the rules advocating "Awareness+Awareness" etc., so it's a bit hard to reconcile for something that should be pretty simple.

[Rassilon]

Here it is again, with the same intent and logic but different wording:

To check to see if a character notices something they will have to make an attribute-only roll, usually Awareness + Ingenuity, plus any modifiers from Traits, like Keen Senses.

If they are searching books for a clue, looking into medical records for information, or something similar, then the character is looking for factual information and their skills come into play - in this case it’s Awareness paired with a skill that reflects the subject.

[Stormcrow]

Apr 20, 2016 17:01:01 GMT bilbo said:

But I'm pretty sure I've seen in many of the published adventures

Never rely on separately published adventures for "official" game rules, however "official" the adventure may be. Almost invariably the person who wrote the rules is not the person who wrote the adventure. They are themselves interpreting the rules, and they might get it wrong.

[bilbo]

I still see a use for Awareness + skill for observational based perception checks. For instance, maybe someone has a rare disease, and no matter how awesome your keen hearing or eyesight, you'll never spot it w/o an Awareness+Medicine check. I guess if the symptoms were easy to see or hear, you could just go right to Ingenuity+medicine OR you could have two checks Awareness + Ingenuity to notice the symptoms, and then Ingenuity+ medicine to understand their significance...?? I don't know, just food for though...

[Escher]

Apr 23, 2016 5:42:23 GMT bilbo said:

I still see a use for Awareness + skill for observational based perception checks. For instance, maybe someone has a rare disease, and no matter how awesome your keen hearing or eyesight, you'll never spot it w/o an Awareness+Medicine check. I guess if the symptoms were easy to see or hear, you could just go right to Ingenuity+medicine OR you could have two checks Awareness + Ingenuity to notice the symptoms, and then Ingenuity+ medicine to understand their significance...?? I don't know, just food for though...

Of course there are uses for those checks. No one is saying otherwise? What you are describing is a Medical Examination / Visual Diagnosis which is indeed an Awareness+Medicine check. They are looking for factual information of what the disease is.
The Awareness + Skill-based Perception checks are to do wholly with those Skills and their uses and are fact-gathering checks for those specific skills.
All the Awareness + Ingenuity checks in the world are not going to help someone search for and identify a particular Herb in a forest if they don't have Knowledge (Herbs).
It's the difference between "I'm can see every single thing in the forest, and it's full of trees and flowers and stuff" and "I'm an 80-year old Botanist, I can hardly see and I'm deaf, but I know that plant over there is Belladonna".

In this context, Awareness + Ingenuity is to Notice, Awareness + Skill is to Investigate & Understand.