S8. EP4 Listen

[Rassilon]

What did you think?

[Catsmate]

Now that was proper Who, though the whole End of the Universe bit is overdone

Nice to see the psychic paper's back.

[ninjaconor]

I thought it had some very strong moments but it all seemed a bit messy. The whole bit with Colonel Pink from the end of the universe seemed really unnecessary, and I'm pretty sure visiting The Doctor in his childhood violates the time-lock in some way.

[Catsmate]

Sept 13, 2014 19:27:46 GMT ninjaconor said:

I thought it had some very strong moments but it all seemed a bit messy. The whole bit with Colonel Pink from the end of the universe seemed really unnecessary, and I'm pretty sure visiting The Doctor in his childhood violates the time-lock in some way.

Clara's done it before, many times.

[Escher]

I thought it was a genuinely creepy episode with real bombshell of a twist. A wonderful addition to the mythology.
I wasn't 'seeing' who the new Doctor is until this episode.

I was going to mark it as Great for the creepyiness and story alone (the best of this season so far) until it hit that continuity bombshell and then it went to 'Amazing' and instant classic status for me.

I wonder if that gunless figure of the soldier Clara left the young Doc was meant to imply it played a part in the Doctor's 'no guns' philosophy? Symbolic at least. Moffat appears to be writing Clara into the Doctor's past in a huge way. 'Never cruel nor cowardly' etc.  Indeed. A bit of mind-blower for me at least.

[zebaroth]

Sept 13, 2014 19:27:46 GMT ninjaconor said:

I thought it had some very strong moments but it all seemed a bit messy. The whole bit with Colonel Pink from the end of the universe seemed really unnecessary, and I'm pretty sure visiting The Doctor in his childhood violates the time-lock in some way.

yes that dose kinda mess up the time lock but they did give a reason the doctor
did deactivate the fell-safes on the tardis

[thereviewer]

I'll admit, I kind of get what Moffat was doing here. It was trying to be more like the Aztecs or Black Orchid. It was trying to be an episode without any monsters. I respect that, but I think there was a little too much plot going on. But it was passable for me.

[da professor]

More primitive time-travel gone wrong and someone who doesn't want to be seen following the Doctor. Anyone else think that someone could have a link to Missy?

[Rel Fexive]

Firstly, remember that Clara outside of the Doctor's timestream scar isn't special; only going into the scar got her into the Doctor's past last time. This time is was taking off the safeties in the TARDIS.

Secondly, going into Gallifrey's past (and the Doctor's past) only breaks the First Law of Time - it doesn't have anything to do with the time lock, which only affects the Time War.

[Stormcrow]

I think "taking off the safeties" only applied to going to the end of the universe.

After the Time War, the universe became as if the Time Lords had never existed. (Presumably the Daleks, too.) Otherwise the Doctor could have gone to a point prior to the war and saved someone.

As it was a time war, I suppose that the tactics on both sides involved going to any point in the other side's history and doing damage there. Thus, there really wasn't a "before the war."

What's really going on here is that Moffat can't stop poking at the history of the Doctor. He thinks he's being clever, but he's really just undermining the show with too much naval-gazing.

[misterharry]

For me, this was the best episode of the series so far. Very atmospheric and I loved Clara's visit to the barn at the end.

One of the things I've noticed with this series is the smattering of quotes from old stories, and Listen didn't disappoint. Among the more obvious ones I noticed are from An Unearthly Child ("Fear makes companions of us all") and a paraphrasing of Emma's description of the Doctor from the end of The Curse of Fatal Death (about the Doctor being brave and kind and so on).

[olegrand]

As with the previous episodes, Capaldi's performance was fantastic - a darker, different, older-but-all-new Doctor, yet one who reminds us of several previous incarnations (1st and 7th, most notably, with some elements of 3rd and 9th) without ever being too reminiscent.

As for the story itself, well, I've got mixed feelings. I thought it was really great, with some wonderfully eerie moments... until the "Gallifreyan barn" sequence, which I found both off-putting (in an "all-this-for-THAT?" manner, and also because the very Blink-reminiscent tone of the episode had been leading us to expect something great in the vein of the Weeping Angels, rather than some déjà vu stuff about being afraid of the dark) and quite annoying - since (independently of the time-lock continuity issues) it did not really answer any of the questions raised and built up during the exposition phase of the story... I couldn't help but get the feeling that the story itself had been completely sacrificed in favor of yet-another "clever" continuity stunt - which, incidentally, adds nothing to the series or the characters themselves (especially since Clara was already involved in all those incursions in the Doctor's past incarnations in The Name of the Doctor).

[Hedgewick]

Sept 14, 2014 2:14:22 GMT zebaroth said:

Sept 13, 2014 19:27:46 GMT ninjaconor said:

I thought it had some very strong moments but it all seemed a bit messy. The whole bit with Colonel Pink from the end of the universe seemed really unnecessary, and I'm pretty sure visiting The Doctor in his childhood violates the time-lock in some way.

yes that dose kinda mess up the time lock but they did give a reason the doctor
did deactivate the fell-safes on the tardis

As far as I see it, there's no violation of the so-called time lock. Yes, travelling to Gallifrey's past is impossible given the results of the Time War. It seems, however, that the shack in the desert is not on the planet Gallifrey. Surely the Doctor traveled to safe place, a separate place, to activate the Moment. Who can say what world we're seeing, but it doesn't seem that Clara and company visited Gallifrey during "Listen." Apparently, the Doctor spent some time travelling as a child. It is a big universe, after all.

[infinitydoctor]

Pretty sure the barn IS on Gallifrey - the 10th Doctor says "we shouldn't have been able to come here, something let us through", implying the time locks were in place. Besides, the sky looks like Gallifrey's. It is definitely outside the Citadel though, and probably a long way from the fighting. Also, we know that the Time War is time locked, but maybe those locks don't extend all the way into Gallifrey's past? And as others have pointed out, Clara has already been there on more than one occasion (she was on Gallifrey when the First Doctor stole the TARDIS after all....)

(Absolutely loved the episode btw)

[Escher]

Anyone spot Abslom Daak, Dalek-Killer in the preview of next weeks episode?

[Aerzyk]

LOVED IT up until the end w/the whole little Doctor in the barn bit. Other people have given well-worded reasons for me. =P

Still, a great episode. What was the thing on the bed, tho? Some little kid or vegetarian Vashta Nerada what not?

[Stormcrow]

Sept 17, 2014 10:33:55 GMT Aerzyk said:

What was the thing on the bed, tho? Some little kid or vegetarian Vashta Nerada what not?

I'm sure Steven Moffat doesn't know and thinks that his not knowing is awfully clever.

(Dude! Write stories about the Doctor's adventures, not about the Doctor!)

[olegrand]

Sept 17, 2014 15:54:36 GMT Stormcrow said:

Sept 17, 2014 10:33:55 GMT Aerzyk said:

What was the thing on the bed, tho? Some little kid or vegetarian Vashta Nerada what not?

I'm sure Steven Moffat doesn't know and thinks that his not knowing is awfully clever.

(Dude! Write stories about the Doctor's adventures, not about the Doctor!)

Nicely put! That's exactly what I was trying to say when I noted that "continuity cleverness" tended to eclipse / hinder the story itself.

[da professor]

Sept 17, 2014 15:58:20 GMT olegrand said:

Sept 17, 2014 15:54:36 GMT Stormcrow said:

I'm sure Steven Moffat doesn't know and thinks that his not knowing is awfully clever.

(Dude! Write stories about the Doctor's adventures, not about the Doctor!)

Nicely put! That's exactly what I was trying to say when I noted that "continuity cleverness" tended to eclipse / hinder the story itself.

How about we watch the rest of the series to see if it's explained before deciding whether Mr Moffat knows what he's doing?

[misterharry]

Sept 17, 2014 16:16:34 GMT da professor said:

How about we watch the rest of the series to see if it's explained before deciding whether Mr Moffat knows what he's doing?

Quite. Though even if we don't ever get an explanation, I wouldn't see that in any way as an error. There happened to be some sort of alien presence at the children's home, it just wasn't one the undetectable things the Doctor believed are just out of sight. The same with whatever had been outside the airlock on Colonel Pink's ship every night before the Doctor and Clara arrived. If there turns out to be an explanation, great. I'm just not sure that we need one.

[olegrand]

Sept 17, 2014 16:16:34 GMT da professor said:

How about we watch the rest of the series to see if it's explained before deciding whether Mr Moffat knows what he's doing?

Of course. That being said - and it's purely a matter of taste - I'm not a big fan of having to wait for the end of a season to see if - or how - it all works out - it was precisely this "wait until the end" approach which IMHO made some of the Matt Smith era seasons far less enjoyable than they might have been (I'm especially thinking of the season with the whole "Impossible Astronaut" thing, but yes, this is a matter of subjective tastes). Mr Moffat is obviously a remarkably talented script writer ("Blink", "The Empty Child" etc.), but Russell T. Davies' way of handling the "season gimmicks" (the Bad Wolf meme, the Torchwood references, the Mr Saxon foreshadowing etc) really worked better for me: these were made intriguing without ever overtaking or overshadowing the plot of any of the episodes - I think that RTD really had achieved the perfect balance between "episode plots" and "continuity gimmicks". But in the end, it all boils down to a matter of personal preferences.

[Stormcrow]

Sept 17, 2014 16:16:34 GMT da professor said:

Sept 17, 2014 15:58:20 GMT olegrand said:

Nicely put! That's exactly what I was trying to say when I noted that "continuity cleverness" tended to eclipse / hinder the story itself.

How about we watch the rest of the series to see if it's explained before deciding whether Mr Moffat knows what he's doing?

Three previous series of this sort of thing isn't enough?

[jennysfan]

Some people aren't convinced. Just let them muddle their way through. It won't stop you from enjoying it.

[olegrand]

Sept 18, 2014 22:14:12 GMT jennysfan said:

Some people aren't convinced. Just let them muddle their way through. It won't stop you from enjoying it.

Are people really "muddling through" when they express some reservations about an episode? And I don't see how this could "stop" anyone from enjoying it. Surely the exchange of opinions is the whole point of a forum / discussion board ?

[da professor]

I have an idea that any questions Mr Moffat has left unanswered to date, including who/what was under the blanket in this episode, will either be answered by the end of his run or be DELIBERATELY left unanswered to replace some of the original sense of mystery about the Doctor which was gradually lost as we learned more and more about Gallifrey and his connection with it.

[adhseidh]

Didn't enjoy this one at all I'm afraid, no narrative flow , like watching an unfunny treehouse of horror or a short trips. I like stories where the character drives the plot but this was very much the plot drives the character. And as for the end I know the show only pays lip services to continuity so we will put the time lock, Gallifryean meantime & the Transduction barrier on the back burner & ask do we need the Doctor deconstructed in such a way. We already have Clara involved in all his victory`s ( which I can just about explain in my head) but now gives him his life philosophy ? Sorry no, Emperor's new clothes of an episode

[Eryx]

Awesome. A good creepy episode once again. This was the episode that firmly cemented Capaldi as the Doctor for me.

[hobbitfan]

An interesting episode but I think Moffat is repeating himself too much and it doesn't hold together at all when put to any amount of intellectual scrutiny.