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Post by Pertwee on May 3, 2013 14:41:03 GMT
In this thread, I will use my 30+ years of exposure to the Vortex to give an answer for any continuity bending question that has reared its head in the history of the show.
The rules are simple:
1. Bring up a bit of 'Discontinuity.'
2. Said Discontinuity must be based on something said or seen in the television show. Trying to work in the rest of the trans-media universe is a Sisyphean task that would qualify as a lifetime's worth of study for even a Time Lord Cardinal.
3. Be polite, please.
The Doctor is in...
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Post by thewatcher on May 3, 2013 17:23:52 GMT
Okay, I'll start with this old chestnut. It may have been explained already but what about the various versions of Atlantis?
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Post by Pertwee on May 3, 2013 18:41:19 GMT
I knew that would be the first one to come up. It is the first one that folks use to show that Doctor Who continuity makes little sense, but it has never actually been a continuity problem, as Atlantis has only ever been actually destroyed once (if that) in Doctor Who.
Our first trip to Atlantis occurs in The Underwater Menace, but this is not the original, but a ruined, sunken colony of Atlantis in the modern era.
Our next mention is in 'The Daemons' when Azal says 'Remember Atlantis!' Remember what? That he destroyed it? Most likely not, as he never states that directly. It is clearly a metaphor for 'Remember that place? They were undeserving of the power they sought and sunk beneath the waves. If you are found unworthy, I will do that to the whole world!'
We only see the actual destruction of the place at the hand/claws/wings of Chronos in the Time Monster. So, it is only destroyed once...
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Post by Siskoid on May 3, 2013 21:42:56 GMT
The other classic question, of course, is resolving the Doctor's one-heart, demi-human status from 1st and 8th Doctors, which I'm sure you'll tie together somehow..?
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infinitydoctor
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Post by infinitydoctor on May 3, 2013 22:31:43 GMT
I'll go with the old classic of why does WOTAN say "Doctor Who is required" (although that might turn out to actually be his name in a couple of weeks time...)
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Post by Pertwee on May 4, 2013 4:05:38 GMT
The other classic question, of course, is resolving the Doctor's one-heart, demi-human status from 1st and 8th Doctors, which I'm sure you'll tie together somehow..? See the Faulty Heart Train in the TTC and First Doctor Sourcebook. Basically, one of the hearts fails when he is knocked unconscious (or causes him to go unconscious) so folks listening for a heartbeat hear only one. As for Demi-Human status in the TV movie, it is quite possible that he has human blood as his retina is even recognized as having a human pattern by the Master without his hearing the Doctor say as much. It would explain a great deal about why he finds Earth so fascinating and is so protective of it. And it might also explain why he is such an iconoclast amongst his people. Whatever the rationale behind it, he said it, the Master corroborated it and, barring the use of anything inside or outside of the television show to contradict it, it is continuity, not discontinuity. Strangely never explored or even mentioned, but still continuity. I'll go with the old classic of why does WOTAN say "Doctor Who is required" (although that might turn out to actually be his name in a couple of weeks time...) Computers rely on data. WOTAN had little data on the Doctor and had no last name. So the identification string contained the query string 'who' along with the Doctor's known title, which we assume was not only used to identify this Doctor from others, but was simultaneously a request for further information from any source listening (computers being the efficient machines that they are). The sobriquet would have changed had new data presented itself. Kind of a computer way of saying 'Doctor whoever he is.' |
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Post by chickenpaddy on May 4, 2013 7:16:28 GMT
The Doctor Who graphic novel, "The Forgotten" has a nice explanation for the "half-human" bit. In the book, the eighth Doctor states that it was a ruse for the Master using a half-functioning chameleon arch and a wide-eyed expression.
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Post by Siskoid on May 4, 2013 10:35:48 GMT
The Doctor's variable age. Go.
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Post by Pertwee on May 4, 2013 14:19:23 GMT
The Doctor Who graphic novel, "The Forgotten" has a nice explanation for the "half-human" bit. In the book, the eighth Doctor states that it was a ruse for the Master using a half-functioning chameleon arch and a wide-eyed expression. I liked that story and thought that was a great explanation (outside of th esmall niggle that he never had time to go back to the TARDIS to use the Chameleon Arch), but, per the rules for BBC Licensing, it is not continuity  The Doctor's variable age. Go. The Doctor Lies. Especially about his age. Vain old bastard. ;D Seriously though, he started tweaking his age in The Ribos Operation. After the Time War, he had suddenly lost a few centuries (928 in Time and the Rani, 900 in The Aliens of London, two incarnations later). This might be explained in the usual Davis/Moffat way by screaming 'TIME WAR' at the top of our lungs to disavow such mysteries, but given that he was hanging out with a 19 year old at the time, I'd say he was feeling a bit self-conscious and needed to fiddle his age a bit. After all, 900 sounds a lot less ancient than a millennium. To further corroborate this, note that in 'The Empty Child' he makes the comment '900 years of phone box travel...' while by himself, which means that, given he was in his 2-400's (depending on the source) during his first incarnation, he should actually be in his early 1000's at the time of that episode and he knows it. |
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Post by misterharry on May 4, 2013 20:48:12 GMT
The Doctor Who graphic novel, "The Forgotten" has a nice explanation for the "half-human" bit. In the book, the eighth Doctor states that it was a ruse for the Master using a half-functioning chameleon arch and a wide-eyed expression. Isn't there also an explanation in the Big Finish audio The Apocalypse Element - something to do with Evelyn Smythe's eye-print being used as security locks on Gallifrey? Or something. OK, another classic here - an easy one, I fear, but I'm interested in hearing your take. Who are the other faces seen during the Doctor's mind battle with Morbius? |
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Post by Pertwee on May 5, 2013 0:32:52 GMT
The Doctor Who graphic novel, "The Forgotten" has a nice explanation for the "half-human" bit. In the book, the eighth Doctor states that it was a ruse for the Master using a half-functioning chameleon arch and a wide-eyed expression. Isn't there also an explanation in the Big Finish audio The Apocalypse Element - something to do with Evelyn Smythe's eye-print being used as security locks on Gallifrey? Or something. OK, another classic here - an easy one, I fear, but I'm interested in hearing your take. Who are the other faces seen during the Doctor's mind battle with Morbius? According to the production notes and interviews? The Doctor's pre-Hartnel incarnations. According to the Virgin New Adventures? The Other's incarnation's before he lept into the Looms. It can't be the former, because the Doctor has clearly numbered his incarnations as early as the Third Doctor. The latter is from a line of books that are not only considered non-canon, but are actually used as fodder for at least 3 Davies era Who stories I can think of and one of them, Lungbarrow, which gives us the whole Other/Loom/Etc, backstory, has been contradicted a number of times in the series, most glaringly when the Doctor mentions a father, mother, uncle, etc. So the only possible answer for television continuity purposes (for which neither of those previous explanations count anyway) is that these were reflections of Morbius. He was winning against the Doctor initially, but the sudden turnaround, with the Doctor regressing Morbius just before the evil Time Lord could finish off his first incarnation, may well have been a result of the brain-case starting to short out just before it blew a fuse. This is why the Doctor is so weak after the battle. He won by the skin of his teeth and only due to the fact that Morbius had been a disembodied brain for centuries and had only recently acquired a fishbowl for a head (which proved to be a very poor mental vehicle for Mind-bending contests). But had Morbius had more time to recover, or a natural head, the Doctor would have been reduced to a vegetable in no time at all. |
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Post by Siskoid on May 5, 2013 12:18:02 GMT
Making sense of the number of times Earth is destroyed? (The Ark, The End of the World, even The Mysterious Planet if you like)
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Post by brainsnaffler on May 5, 2013 22:31:47 GMT
Ok I've got a couple that made me soooooo mad when I saw them.
1. How come Skaro just suddenly appears in Series 7 and the Doctor acts like it's totally normal, even though it's destroyed by the Hand of Omega (and even if not, then it's locked in the Time War)?
2. Where did all the hundreds of daleks suddenly come from in the same episode, and why is there suddenly a Dalek Prime Minister?
3. Why have the Daleks even got an asylum planet when everything we've been led to believe about their character suggests they'd just exterminate inferior or mad specimins of their race?
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Post by Siskoid on May 5, 2013 23:10:27 GMT
On the Cyber-side of things, we also need an explanation as to why the Cybus-Men from Pete's World are flying classic style ships (and have skulls in their heads, etc.) from The Pandorica Opens onward.
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Post by chickenpaddy on May 6, 2013 3:28:28 GMT
Siskoid, I believe it was stated by the producers that all Cybermen from Pandorica and after are actually Mondas/Telos Cybermen who have evolved similarly to the Cybus-men. Evidence of this can be seen in their usage of Cybermats, their blank chest plates, and the use of the classic Cyberman symbol in the Adventure Games (which are considered canon).
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Post by ninjaconor on May 6, 2013 8:11:51 GMT
Ok I've got a couple that made me soooooo mad when I saw them. 1. How come Skaro just suddenly appears in Series 7 and the Doctor acts like it's totally normal, even though it's destroyed by the Hand of Omega (and even if not, then it's locked in the Time War)? 2. Where did all the hundreds of daleks suddenly come from in the same episode, and why is there suddenly a Dalek Prime Minister? 3. Why have the Daleks even got an asylum planet when everything we've been led to believe about their character suggests they'd just exterminate inferior or mad specimins of their race? 1. I know in one of the seventh Doctor books (can't think which one) it's mentioned that the Doctor didn't actually destroy Skaro but the planet Antalin which was a sort of decoy Skaro. The adventure games fill in why there is a Skaro in series 7. In City of the Daleks the Doctor discovers that the New Paradigm Daleks have rebuilt Skaro and made a new Dalek Emperor. He promptly wrecks the place in his Doctory way and that's how we end up with the one in series 7. 2. The hundreds of Daleks are there because of time travel. When the New Paradigm Daleks escaped they could go to any place in time and start rebuilding. Because they could go back as early as they wanted, they could have had millions of years to build a new empire. As for the Prime Minister, The Daleks always have some kind of leader. They've had Emperors which have been destroyed over and over and Davros who is defeated even more frequently. They're bound to eventually try out new things like prime ministers  4. It's explained in the episode. They find the destructive madness of the insane Daleks beautiful. It's the exact kind of pure hatred that they aspire to so they wouldn't destroy it. Paradoxically though, if the insane Daleks were let loose they'd probably be a hindrance to Dalek schemes, so they're locked on that planet instead. |
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Post by Rel Fexive on May 6, 2013 10:14:19 GMT
It's best to ignore the whole Skaro/Antalin thing as it is absolutely terrible garbage. A stupid idea to try and explain something that didn't need explaining.
As for the Parliament of the Daleks, I don't think we should be fooled by the name; I seriously doubt they suddenly went all democratic or anything. It's probably just the name other people gave it because it looked similar (big room full of Daleks where decisions are made) and because it's slightly ironic.
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Post by Siskoid on May 6, 2013 11:07:20 GMT
Guys... you're doing Pertwee's job for him. ;-)
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Post by Rel Fexive on May 6, 2013 11:20:40 GMT
Ooops!  |
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Post by chickenpaddy on May 6, 2013 23:10:48 GMT
Sorry! You know what happens when you start talking about continuity in a geek haven such as this...
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Post by Pertwee on May 8, 2013 16:15:12 GMT
No worries! That is the true purpose of this thread, after all! Sorry I'm late, I'm in the middle of finals this week and part of that means the completion of Barbarians of Heavy Metal so I can start working on more Who stuff next week. I am crazy busy. Making sense of the number of times Earth is destroyed? (The Ark, The End of the World, even The Mysterious Planet if you like) Easy-peasy. You really need to define what 'destroyed' actually means. The Earth, you see has been 'destroyed' in the sense that its surface has been stripped clean of life quite a few times in its long history. The solar flares that led to the creation of Space Station Nerva, and again just before the launch of the Ark did just that. Mankind often returned to the planet after its 'destruction,' even after the Ark (Cassandra was born there 2000 years before its final destruction). But the Earth itself, as a planet has only been destroyed once: in the End of the World. No discontinuity, just an unspecific use of the word 'Destroyed.' Ok I've got a couple that made me soooooo mad when I saw them. 1. How come Skaro just suddenly appears in Series 7 and the Doctor acts like it's totally normal, even though it's destroyed by the Hand of Omega (and even if not, then it's locked in the Time War)? 2. Where did all the hundreds of daleks suddenly come from in the same episode, and why is there suddenly a Dalek Prime Minister? 3. Why have the Daleks even got an asylum planet when everything we've been led to believe about their character suggests they'd just exterminate inferior or mad specimins of their race? Seriously good explanations given already, but to add to that: 1. The Daleks at their height are a civilization on par with the Time Lords. If Davros could kidnap an entire planet from anywhere in time and space and place it out of phase with the rest of the universe, and then the TARDIS can, on its own, drag it back across the galaxy and settle it down into its original orbit, is totally conceivable that the Daleks could rip Skaro from the timeline right before its star was turned supernova and bring it forward to serve as the New Paradigm homeworld. 2. The planet Skaro was destroyed during the temporal cold war period right before the time war, so there is no reason it would be in the Time lock, making the above scenario relatively easy if you judge it by the events seen in Journey's End. Next... |
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Post by Corone on May 8, 2013 18:21:51 GMT
Even more interesting is that Skaro somehow gets rebuilt before the end of the Seventh Doctor's era.
The Master is executed there in the movie!
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Post by Marnal on May 8, 2013 22:31:52 GMT
My theory is that "Asylum of the Daleks" takes place BEFORE the Time War from the Dalek's point of view. The classic series used to jump all over Dalek history, not sure why the new series would be forbidden to do so.
Of course I also tend to think that FROM THE DOCTOR'S POV, "Dinosaurs on a Space Ship" occurs BEFORE "The Wedding of River Song."
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Post by Siskoid on May 9, 2013 1:38:21 GMT
Have we addressed UNIT dating yet?
(Please, no joke about Jo and Mike, that's too cruel to contemplate.)
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Post by Kit on May 9, 2013 4:17:41 GMT
Curious to see what Pertwee has to say on this, but IMHO, the new series has pretty definitively settled the dating issue.
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Post by Marnal on May 10, 2013 22:59:30 GMT
But what makes the new series' take on UNIT so much more "definitive" then the data from Classic Dr Who?
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Post by Siskoid on May 11, 2013 23:29:25 GMT
In any case, even if we accept the "when", it doesn't help the discrepancies in the on-screen dates.
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Post by Pertwee on May 13, 2013 14:45:27 GMT
The dating thing is one of the harder ones to rationalize, but, if memory serves me correctly, there is never solidly mention of a date for The Web of Fear, just vague references to '40 years ago' and something similar in the Invasion for 'a few years back with the Yeti business.'
So, really, the problem with dating doesn't come from Mawdryn Undead, which seems to run UNIT dating based on television appearances (a trick we writers for the line use, by the way) but with the assumption that when the Abominable Snowmen is mentioned as having taken place 40 years previous to The Web of Fear, that it is precise dating and not just a rounding up of 30 and some odd years, which would place it around 1969 or 1970, placing it, The Invasion and Spearhead from Space all around the same time.
But what about Sarah from the 1980's? Well, considering the fact that she traveled a very long time with the Doctor (she was his best friend, after all) it quite possible that according to her time line, 5 or more years passed between the last full UNIT story (Terror of the Zygons) and the final ever UNIT story for the 70's (The Android Invasion). Remember, time is relative, the Doctor's trips are non-linear, and we have no idea how many times Sarah went back during 1975-1980 (when she is fimrly established as having settled into the eighties by K9 and Company) and in what order. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey.
And finally, with all the potential unseen adventures the 3rd and 4th Doctor had, it is quite possible that something he did changed the natural flow of time enough to scatter the dating by a half a decade or so. It might even be possible that one of these incidences is what led to the tribunal exiling him to Earth in particular. You broke it, you bought it, Doc.
Of course if you're Stephen Moffat or RTD, you just shout 'Time War' at the top of your lungs and walk off snickering at your puckishness. But the other three explanations make that unnecessary.
Now back to work on the Villains Chapter...
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Post by Kit on May 13, 2013 20:03:43 GMT
Not only can they shout "Time War!" but they can also shout "Big Bang 2!"
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Post by Escher on May 13, 2013 21:14:45 GMT
Not only can they shout "Time War!" but they can also shout "Big Bang 2!" I use both to justify my own campaign's variance against canon continuity. It works really well and the players accept it. |
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