The Extracanonical Troughton

[dastari]

Dark Path is almost already jam packed with entries so i never seriously considered giving Koschei his own listing. I think that his part in the Dark Path should probably be listed in Alia's section.

As for Cromwell didn't realize he'd appeared in an audio.

Mr Harry is correct. I hadn't listened to the story yet so did not know its title but I'm talking about the Destiny of the Doctor release for Troughton and that it ought to be added to the lineup.

As for Downtime, I think that the key person to cover is Victoria. I know that you don't want double entries for characters that are listed in the regular sourcebooks but this is Victoria 30 years later so its almost like a different person (fr instance she'd go under villains). The only other person I can think to list for Downtime is Fiona Lethbridge Stuart and while i think she'd make a fine entry as well her story doesn't really intersect with the main plot story for Downtime (its a huge personal deal for the Brigadier but that's character rather than plot). So what do you think about a Victoria entry? Any other ideas? I probably ought to rewatch or reread it.

Season 6B - The main sourcebook seems to be covering this, will we still have our own writeup abouot it giving more of the extrancannonical details?

The Selachians are in so many stories, I think that they need a 2-page entry to do them justice. The location entry for The Final Sanction could contain a lot of the details for that story but their entry would be shouldering the main burden for the Murder Game and The Selachian Gambit because there aren't really any characters or locations that are that interesting to cover on those stories. I suggest putting in stats for a Selachian both in and out of armor. For gadgets since we don't seem to have many I'd also suggest adding the Quantum Vault from the Selachian Gambit as well as the weapon in the Final Sanction whose name I can't currently recall for some reason...

[misterharry]

Jun 7, 2013 20:20:31 GMT dastari said:

The Selachians are in so many stories, I think that they need a 2-page entry to do them justice. The location entry for The Final Sanction could contain a lot of the details for that story but their entry would be shouldering the main burden for the Murder Game and The Selachian Gambit because there aren't really any characters or locations that are that interesting to cover on those stories.

Well, the write-up I've got prepared for the Selachians is really more the background and history for their species, not plot details of the novels and audios they appear in.

I suggest putting in stats for a Selachian both in and out of armor.

Yep, got that covered - Selachians are them in armour; Ockorans are the species without it.

For gadgets since we don't seem to have many I'd also suggest adding the Quantum Vault from the Selachian Gambit as well as the weapon in the Final Sanction whose name I can't currently recall for some reason...

I think that's the G-Bomb? Probably deserves an entry, though it may be a short one - not sure what it does apart from destroys planets.

[dastari]

Jun 7, 2013 20:30:28 GMT misterharry said:

Jun 7, 2013 20:20:31 GMT dastari said:

The Selachians are in so many stories, I think that they need a 2-page entry to do them justice. The location entry for The Final Sanction could contain a lot of the details for that story but their entry would be shouldering the main burden for the Murder Game and The Selachian Gambit because there aren't really any characters or locations that are that interesting to cover on those stories.

Well, the write-up I've got prepared for the Selachians is really more the background and history for their species, not plot details of the novels and audios they appear in.

Seems like we still need more entries then. Maybe one for Galactibank and whatever the name of the hotel was in The Murder Game. Its probably been 10 years since I read that one.

Oh well at least that keeps Selachians at one page.

[dastari]

Wait wait wait, we're doing the Cthulhu Mythos sidebar before the NA's? I'd think if anything deserves to be put into the NA guide its all the intersections between the Doctor and the Great Old Ones.

[Siskoid]

A few points about the last few exchanges...

1) The Destiny audio HAS been added to the line-up as Shadow of Death.

2) Koschei needn't have an entry at this juncture, but Face of the Enemy might be a good place for it.

3) Misterharry has it right when he means to cover Selachians as a species and not as a set of stories. As I've often said, it's more about giving players a alien monsters to deal with than it is a guidebook for the expanded universe. I'd rather never give any plot details at all when it can be helped! I know this is probably a major difference of opinion between me and Dastari, but like I've said, there are plenty of other reference works that will tell you the plot of a book or audio if you don't want to actually read it or listen to it (and I list them at the back of each book). That said, Selachians may well extend to 2 pages if we include their two versions and their weapons all together.

4) I was also planning on covering the Mythos in White Darkness, but this might turn out to be a regular sidebar, whenever it comes up. I'll see what we come up with.

5) Never read Downtime, so I really don't know what to do with it. Probably not an already-statted companion though (unless she's VERY different). As with point #3, I don't want to include Victoria just so we can recap Downtime's plot. The characters and monsters are all covered in the main books, so we'll have to look elsewhere. Maybe if I read the Reference Guide's synopsis, there's something we can use.

[misterharry]

At the moment I've got three separate 1-page items for the Selachians: the Selachians themselves, the Ockorans and Selachian living weapons. They could be left separate or merged into one if desired.

As for the Cthulhu Mythos sidebar, this is only a couple of paragraphs, as I envisage a more in-depth article in the appropriate 7th Doctor volume. It mentions the use of the Mythos in Doctor Who, the differences between the Who version of the Necronomicon and the Lovecraftian original, and mentions the New Adventures (and other spin-offs which have used the Mythos) in passing - but little detail for the latter.

[misterharry]

Jun 7, 2013 20:20:31 GMT dastari said:

Season 6B - The main sourcebook seems to be covering this, will we still have our own writeup abouot it giving more of the extrancannonical details?

I think I sent you my piece on Season 6B to look over? I've mentioned details that the official sourcebook can't - the explanatory scene from World Game and the 2nd Doctor's exile as depicted in TV Comic. So I think it's still valid to include it.

[Siskoid]

For Downtime... the Hinton-Yeti? Kate?

[misterharry]

Jun 8, 2013 16:20:14 GMT Siskoid said:

For Downtime... the Hinton-Yeti? Kate?

The Yeti would be good - they're quite different to the TV versions.

Kate and Captain Cavendish maybe.

Possibly the University as a Location?

[dastari]

Jun 8, 2013 17:02:33 GMT misterharry said:

Jun 8, 2013 16:20:14 GMT Siskoid said:

For Downtime... the Hinton-Yeti? Kate?

The Yeti would be good - they're quite different to the TV versions.

Kate and Captain Cavendish maybe.

Possibly the University as a Location?

Oh of course I'm misremembering. Fiona was the name of the Brig's wife. Kate is his daughter's name.

See I figure if we're going to include Yeti because they're different then we can include latter-day Victoria because she is very different. The only thing that links her to the Victoria in the TV series is that she's possessed by the Intelligence.

That being said, I think Kate deserves a mention just because she might be useful/important if someone is using the Brig as well.

That being said, I also like the use of the University as a location because a lot of what the Intelligence was doing could be described there.

Oh and Mr Harry, I know you list the extracannonical stuff in your 6B writeup but sometimes I have a hard time knowing what Siskoid wants or doesn't want with duplicate entries. The guidebooks certainly don't mind duplicate entries for the same characters at different points in their life - we get Col. Lethbridge-Stuart and Brigadier Lethbridge-Stuart so wasn't sure if he'd be ok with an additional 6B entry dealing the extracannonical stuff.

I just saw the 6B entry in the main book and was somewhat surprised since it is still contraversial in some circles (although I think even without the extra cannon its still the best way to explain The Two Doctors and the inconsistancies in what Pertwee says in Spearhead vs what happened in War Games).

Jun 7, 2013 22:05:26 GMT Siskoid said:

3) Misterharry has it right when he means to cover Selachians as a species and not as a set of stories. As I've often said, it's more about giving players a alien monsters to deal with than it is a guidebook for the expanded universe. I'd rather never give any plot details at all when it can be helped! I know this is probably a major difference of opinion between me and Dastari, but like I've said, there are plenty of other reference works that will tell you the plot of a book or audio if you don't want to actually read it or listen to it (and I list them at the back of each book). That said, Selachians may well extend to 2 pages if we include their two versions and their weapons all together.

I understand the POV on this but also think some nod needs to be given to the source to give the proper context. I don't think that you necessary disagree with that and sometimes it's just a matter of degree.

As for Cthulhu as regular sidebars it makes sense. I was thinking we might revisit Magic in the Whoniverse as it comes up time after time.

[Siskoid]

Let's do an older Victoria then! Unlike other Doctors, Doc2 doesn't have any "new companions" for the first chapter, so she'll serve that purpose.

[misterharry]

Jun 9, 2013 0:03:28 GMT Siskoid said:

Let's do an older Victoria then! Unlike other Doctors, Doc2 doesn't have any "new companions" for the first chapter, so she'll serve that purpose.

There's also an older Victoria in one of the 6th Doctor's Lost Stories audios. Which raises a question - I can't remember off-hand whether this is the case with Victoria (though I suspect so), but in instances where there is conflicting information from different sources, do we try to reconcile them in our write-ups, or do we just present each version as given? The same will apply to the older Susans from the BBC novels and Big Finish audios.

[Siskoid]

We can try and reconcile them (a tried and true geek pursuit - and there's probably already a theory in Ahistory or some part of the internet), and the version might even get a write-up. After all, you yourself wrote up the Doctor's TV Comic companions, which required its own notation about the canonicity of those stories, judicious placement in the timeline etc.

[dastari]

Jun 9, 2013 11:24:43 GMT Siskoid said:

We can try and reconcile them (a tried and true geek pursuit - and there's probably already a theory in Ahistory or some part of the internet), and the version might even get a write-up. After all, you yourself wrote up the Doctor's TV Comic companions, which required its own notation about the canonicity of those stories, judicious placement in the timeline etc.

I'm thinking a Susan sidebar around Lungbarrow might be in order since there's multiple versions of her past as well.

Oh and Mr Harry I was just thinking that your Cthulhu sidebar could mention that the Doctor also fights the Great Old Ones in Twilight of the Gods making it topical for this book in two places.

[dastari]

I'll take the Great Space Elevator as a location. Do we want a writeup on the aliens in this one?

[Siskoid]

If you like.

[dastari]

Shadow of Death still stands blank. I just listened to it today. I'd really love for the location to get an entry but I don't believe that the planet is ever named. If we can get around that then I think that deserves an entry as well as The Quiet Ones for an alien race.

[Siskoid]

Just a quick word to say I'm not resting on my laurels and am already doing prep stuff for the 2nd Doctor volume. I'm laying stake to the 2nd Doc story in the Prisoners of Time comic and that will probably be the first entry I'll have done.

My inbox is at the ready for any and all contributions.

[dastari]

Anyone have any thoughts for how to name the location for Shadow of Death? Am I the only one whose listened to that story?

I've got about 9 more Troughton audios to go through before I've heard them all. I also intend to read all the sourcebooks before doing any more writeups. Almost done with the GM's guide at this point. What were you thinking for tentative deadlines on this one? Do we know when the Pertwee sourcebook is supposed to be out?

[misterharry]

Jun 24, 2013 17:47:41 GMT dastari said:

Anyone have any thoughts for how to name the location for Shadow of Death? Am I the only one whose listened to that story?

I have, but back in February - I don't remember it well enough for any suggestions to come to mind!

[Siskoid]

Because I've got 3-4 weeks vacation in July, I was thinking mid-August for release.

As for Shadow of Death, how about choosing a real-world pulsar and naming the entry after it?

[Siskoid]

Here's a question that's totally layout-based. As you know, the first page of each chapter has a slightly different, thinner layout. So it's important to me to lock those pages up as soon as possible so I don't have headaches later. So... Can you think of what the first entry of each chapter would be?

Do we consider anyone a Companion other than Victoria Waterfield?

Who is the first Ally alphabetically?

Is there a Villain/Monster that comes before Achromatics?

Is there a Location that comes before Axista Four?

Is there a Gadget that comes before the Arimathea Artefact?

[misterharry]

Jun 25, 2013 11:06:44 GMT Siskoid said:

Here's a question that's totally layout-based. As you know, the first page of each chapter has a slightly different, thinner layout. So it's important to me to lock those pages up as soon as possible so I don't have headaches later. So... Can you think of what the first entry of each chapter would be?

Do we consider anyone a Companion other than Victoria Waterfield?

Who is the first Ally alphabetically?

Is there a Villain/Monster that comes before Achromatics?

Is there a Location that comes before Axista Four?

Is there a Gadget that comes before the Arimathea Artefact?

I don't think we can be 100% certain about these at this stage - during the writing for the Hartnell volume, there were quite a lot of ideas for additional entries that only came to me when I re-read/re-listened to the stories. This was particularly true for the Gadgets.

But bearing that in mind, I think you're probably correct with the Villains/Monsters, Locations and Gadgets - I've not got anything noted down that would come before the ones you list.

I can't think of anybody other than Victoria who would qualify as a Companion for this volume.

And as for Allies, that looks like Carnacki at the moment. I'd like to include the Duke of Wellington from World Game (I know he later pops up in an 8th Doctor audio, but that's a far older version, when he's Prime Minister, so he deserves separate write-ups). If you included the Duke under his name, Arthur Wellesley, he'd be first. The only other contender I can think of might be Captain Cavendish from Downtime - I thought I'd already suggested including him (as he reappears, with Kate Lethbridge-Stewart, in the Reeltime Pictures DVD Daemos Rising), though I don't see him in the master list for this thread.

[dastari]

I've kept silent about Reeltime Pictures, mostly because I wasn't sure that we wanted to open that can of worms. I understand that Downtime is part of that but it was also a novel, which gave it slightly more...canonnicity. Still, since we've got the Cushing Films it stands to reason that the Reeltime productions would be included. Does that mean that the Auton trilogy would fall under Pertwee or the expanded cannon?

Wait, wouldn't Alia be the first entry for Ally? Well unless you want to call her a companion since she's Koschei's companion. :-)

For the rest, I think that you're safe Siskoid and since these are all "A" names its fairly likely even if we do find new allies, villains, or locations that aren't yet listed that they will not come before these.

[Siskoid]

I was thinking of Ailia first in allies, but wasn't sure she actually was a good guy, not having read the book.

As for Reeltime, I take it these are fan films? I don't know anything about them. It does NOT stand to reason that if the Cushing films are in here, these are too. My question would be about availability. If these ARE available in some format fans can get to, then great, let's see what can come out of them. (In other words, I'll be doing some research.) If not, it may be more trouble than it's worth. Your calling it a "can of worms" makes me wary.

I did put a fan film in the Pertwee discussion, but 1) pieces of it are available on official DVD, and 2) it doesn't mean it'll get an entry.

[Siskoid]

So went to check things out... Reeltime, BBV, both pretty much the same thing. Ok. Well obviously, we ARE going to at least wink at such productions from time to time. I can't imagine our Doctorless book without at least some mention of Kaldor City, for example (thought those were audios).

I see Downtime is on You-Tube though the sound doesn't work. (It's nice that I can probably pull some images from there though.) Shakedown works fine (Doctorless though).

I'd say the stories are about as canonical as the TV Comic, so it would be nice to include them in some form when possible. I note that Kate Lethbridge Stewart, though in a couple of Reeltime projects, also appears (different actress) in The Rule of Three. That's certainly supporting evidence.

[misterharry]

Jun 25, 2013 18:54:45 GMT Siskoid said:

I was thinking of Ailia first in allies, but wasn't sure she actually was a good guy, not having read the book.

Ahh, I completely forgot about Ailla - yeah, she'd be first!

As for Reeltime, I take it these are fan films? I don't know anything about them. It does NOT stand to reason that if the Cushing films are in here, these are too. My question would be about availability. If these ARE available in some format fans can get to, then great, let's see what can come out of them. (In other words, I'll be doing some research.) If not, it may be more trouble than it's worth. Your calling it a "can of worms" makes me wary.

I did put a fan film in the Pertwee discussion, but 1) pieces of it are available on official DVD, and 2) it doesn't mean it'll get an entry.

Personally, I don't class BBV or Reeltime productions as fan films. They used and paid professional actors, and the finished product was for sale, not just put on YouTube. So semi-pro at least IMHO.

In terms of availability, most have been released (or re-released) on DVD. The major exception is Downtime, but that's one which was adapted as a novel so is being included anyway.

My view would be to only include concepts from them which are worth adapting for DWAITAS, in a similar way as we're picking and choosing key things from comics, short stories and so on. Most probably fit best in the Doctorless volume.

[misterharry]

Jun 25, 2013 19:24:11 GMT Siskoid said:

I can't imagine our Doctorless book without at least some mention of Kaldor City, for example (thought those were audios).

Yes, Kaldor City is an audio series - and just about the best spin-off of all. I heartily recommend it!

I see Downtime is on You-Tube though the sound doesn't work. (It's nice that I can probably pull some images from there though.) Shakedown works fine (Doctorless though).

Shakedown was also adapted as a novel, one of the Virgin New Adventures, so would fit in the appropriate 7th Doctor volume.

I'd say the stories are about as canonical as the TV Comic, so it would be nice to include them in some form when possible. I note that Kate Lethbridge Stewart, though in a couple of Reeltime projects, also appears (different actress) in The Rule of Three. That's certainly supporting evidence.

I think it's fair to include a separate entry for Kate from Downtime and Daemos Rising - she's much younger (and emotionally less mature) than the UNIT version we see in Power of 3 (who'll presumably be included in Cubicle 7's 11th Doctor Sourcebook).

[Siskoid]

Note that I wasn't advocating to drop Kate from Book 2.

[misterharry]

Just noticed you've updated the opening post with the stuff I've just sent you. I think there's a couple of other items you can strike through:
Ockora - this write-up became that for the Ockorans - there's nothing much else to say about the planet that isn't already covered.
Cthulhu Mythos sidebar - included in the entry for the Necronomicon
Scarecrows (under the comics section) - I've included these in the Season 6B entry.


I think dastari is wanting to cover Ailla and the Darkheart from The Dark Path, so can you change those to him please.

But I'll cover Prison in Space and plan on writing entries for Chairman Babs and Location: The Outer Space Correctional Establishment.