misterharry
Dominus Tempus 
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,245
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Oct 6, 2012 17:46:06 GMT
Following comments about the 3rd Doctor being given Face in the Crowd in the new pdf of Defending the Earth (a typo apparently - should be Distinctive of course), I was wondering which of the Doctor's incarnations should have Distinctive and which Face in the Crowd, and should any have neither.
We already know a few from their officially published stats, and a few others seem obvious (well, to me at least). But here's my suggested list:
1st - Face in the Crowd?
2nd - Distinctive?
3rd - Distinctive [confirmed despite error in Defending the Earth]
4th - Distinctive
5th - Distinctive?
6th - Distinctive!!!
7th - Face in the Crowd?
8th - Distinctive?
9th - Face in the Crowd
10th - Face in the Crowd [confirmed]
11th - Distinctive [confirmed]
What do you think? Should any of the Doctor's incarnations have neither trait?
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Post by garethl on Oct 6, 2012 18:15:29 GMT
I don't know much about the older Doctors, but I am having a bit of trouble picturing the difference between Face in the Crowd and not having the trait.
When does someone have the Face in the Crowd trait and when not?
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Post by olegrand on Oct 6, 2012 18:21:19 GMT
Following comments about the 3rd Doctor being given Face in the Crowd in the new pdf of Defending the Earth (a typo apparently - should be Distinctive of course), I was wondering which of the Doctor's incarnations should have Distinctive and which Face in the Crowd, and should any have neither. We already know a few from their officially published stats, and a few others seem obvious (well, to me at least). But here's my suggested list: 1st - Face in the Crowd? 2nd - Distinctive? 3rd - Distinctive [confirmed despite error in Defending the Earth] 4th - Distinctive 5th - Distinctive? 6th - Distinctive!!! 7th - Face in the Crowd? 8th - Distinctive? 9th - Face in the Crowd 10th - Face in the Crowd [confirmed] 11th - Distinctive [confirmed] What do you think? Should any of the Doctor's incarnations have neither trait? But do we take into account only the face - or the overall appearance (including clothing) ? There's also the additional problem of the considered time zone: the eighth doctor's byronesque look, for instance, would be quite commonplace in the first half of the 19th century but would definitely stand out in 2012... so, if we interpret these traits as meaning "physical appearance only" without taking into account clothing and accessories, it all boils down to a matter of (very) subjective perception. |
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,245
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Oct 6, 2012 18:21:39 GMT
I don't know much about the older Doctors, but I am having a bit of trouble picturing the difference between Face in the Crowd and not having the trait. When does someone have the Face in the Crowd trait and when not? It's a good point. Face in the Crowd should be when somebody is what - so bland, unprepossessing or faceless - that they can become unnoticed and warrant the bonuses and penalties that come with the trait. But then the 10th Doctor was given the trait in the original boxset... I get that he wore a fairly normal suit, but his personality was larger than life... |
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,245
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Oct 6, 2012 18:24:44 GMT
But do we take into account only the face - or the overall appearance (including clothing) ? There's also the additional problem of the considered time zone: the eighth doctor's byronesque look, for instance, would be quite commonplace in the first half of the 19th century but would definitely stand out in 2012... so, if we interpret these traits as meaning "physical appearance only" without taking into account clothing and accessories, it all boils down to a matter of (very) subjective perception. Again, a very good point. But if it's all subjective, how can we determine that any character should be given either Distinctive or Face in the Crowd? |
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Post by Kit on Oct 6, 2012 19:25:25 GMT
What would make the 5th Doctor more Distinctive than the First?
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,245
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Oct 6, 2012 19:31:38 GMT
What would make the 5th Doctor more Distinctive than the First? His cricketing outfit is brighter and stands out more in a crowd? Otherwise nothing. Maybe neither has either of these traits. But then, compared to both of these, why does the 10th Doctor have Face in the Crowd? |
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Post by Kit on Oct 6, 2012 19:36:32 GMT
I'm looking at my notes from the Time Traveler's Companion playtest. Due to the NDA, all i'll say is it raises more issues for me. Must now go talk to Pertwee.
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Post by Craig Oxbrow on Oct 6, 2012 19:56:58 GMT
In some cases neither. In some cases both.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,245
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Oct 6, 2012 20:43:24 GMT
In some cases neither. In some cases both. Except that they are mutually exclusive traits - you cannot take both. I realise of course that the Doctor is a special case, but how would that work in game terms? |
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Post by da professor on Oct 7, 2012 8:06:52 GMT
Face in the Crowd means you can pass for a more or less normal person when you want to, wherever you are.
Distinctive means you stand out wherever you are.
Neither means people probably won't notice you unless you are somewhere they think you shouldn't be.
It incorporates personal features, wardrobe and, to an extent, behaviour.
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Post by cliffordjones on Oct 7, 2012 8:42:38 GMT
Perhaps it should boil down to how easily a particular regeneration can get away with calling himself John Smith?  Seriously, though I think that Face In The Crowd has less to do with physical appearance and more to do with the ability to blend in, to not seem odd or out of place. An important factor, I would say, is the alienness of any particular Doctor regeneration. I think that I would give the 8th Doctor Face In The Crowd as he is arguably the most human of all the regenerations ( Zagreus aside). |
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Post by Craig Oxbrow on Oct 7, 2012 10:52:11 GMT
Except that they are mutually exclusive traits - you cannot take both. I realise of course that the Doctor is a special case, but how would that work in game terms? Activation by Story Point, or get a Story Point for activation? |
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Post by Rel Fexive on Oct 7, 2012 11:49:11 GMT
Seems the best solution is not to give any Doctor either of them, and arbitrate how much they stand out on a case by case basis as where they are decides how much they stand out.
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Post by olegrand on Oct 7, 2012 12:26:24 GMT
I've checked the rules and they actually contain some useful clarification about this subject matter. The description of the Face in the Crowd trait clearly states that characters with this trait receive their "blending" bonus "as long as they're not dressing like a clown" (such as, say, wearing ridiculously a long scarf, a coat of many colours or dressing like a cricketeer  . The description of the Distinctive trait has evolved from the original 10th to the 11th Doctor edition: the 11th Doctor edition now clearly includes "the way they dress and act" as a possible justification for having the Distinctive trait (whereas the original rules had a more vague sentence about "appearance"). And, of course, the two traits are mutually exclusive - this is explicitly stated in the rules. All this, of course, leaves room for some interpretation. In the case of our beloved Doctor(s) and for the sake of analysis, I'd be tempted to distinguish an "inherent" version of this trait and a "circumstancial" version: "inherent" means that the trait reflects the character's purely physical appearance (face, height, build etc), while "circumstancial" is tied to clothing and mannerisms. As for the "mutually exclusive" aspect of things, I can see at least one incarnation of the Doctor who might have either trait depending on the way he dresses (but again, this is a very subjective matter). So, taking into account all these criterias, my suggestions would be: 1st Doctor = neither trait 2nd Doctor = neither trait 3rd Doctor = Distinctive (both inherent and circumstancial) 4th Doctor = Distinctive (both inherent and circumstancial) 5th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial) - but if he were to dress "normally", he would definitely be a Face in the Crowd 6th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial; dressing "normally" would NOT, however, make him a Face in the Crowd) 7th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial; dressing "normally" could probably make him a Face in the Crowd - the small, unassuming man etc.)... but if we do NOT consider his clothing and accessories to be eccentric enough to make him Distinctive, then I'd be tempted to say: "neither trait", with the possibility of becoming a Face in the Crowd by dressing up "like everybody". 8th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial - but let's face it, his intense, byronic looks will NEVER make him a Face in the Crowd 9th Doctor = apparently, Face in the Crowd is an official consensus here 10th Doctor = Face in the Crowd (according to his official stats) 11th Doctor = Distinctive (both inherent and circumstancial - unforgettable face + bow ties are cool and all that). So, the only "really tough cases" here appear to be the 5th and 7th Doctors... Thoughts ? Counterpoints ?  |
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cal585
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 14
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Post by cal585 on Oct 7, 2012 13:28:05 GMT
I agree that it's about blending in to the surroundings rather than appearance as such. The 10th Doctor for example was often able to keep a low profile and infiltrate areas or fit in without raising too much suspicion by using Psychic Paper and playing along to a role (e.g. becoming Her Majesty's Protector). The 11th on the other hand often raises questions and doubts from strangers because he's different. Even with the Psychic Paper he never manages to convince them in the first place. The 9th managed to avoid detection in London during WW2 though dressed as a U-Boat captain and despite being quirky, often seemed able to slip into places. So 9th and 10th are Faces in the Crowd and 11th is Distinctive. Haven't seen anything much of the old series to comment on. Sorry, that's probably not very helpful but it got my thought process going  |
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,245
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Oct 7, 2012 17:41:40 GMT
I've checked the rules and they actually contain some useful clarification about this subject matter. The description of the Face in the Crowd trait clearly states that characters with this trait receive their "blending" bonus "as long as they're not dressing like a clown" (such as, say, wearing ridiculously a long scarf, a coat of many colours or dressing like a cricketeer . The description of the Distinctive trait has evolved from the original 10th to the 11th Doctor edition: the 11th Doctor edition now clearly includes "the way they dress and act" as a possible justification for having the Distinctive trait (whereas the original rules had a more vague sentence about "appearance"). And, of course, the two traits are mutually exclusive - this is explicitly stated in the rules. All this, of course, leaves room for some interpretation. In the case of our beloved Doctor(s) and for the sake of analysis, I'd be tempted to distinguish an "inherent" version of this trait and a "circumstancial" version: "inherent" means that the trait reflects the character's purely physical appearance (face, height, build etc), while "circumstancial" is tied to clothing and mannerisms. As for the "mutually exclusive" aspect of things, I can see at least one incarnation of the Doctor who might have either trait depending on the way he dresses (but again, this is a very subjective matter). So, taking into account all these criterias, my suggestions would be: 1st Doctor = neither trait 2nd Doctor = neither trait 3rd Doctor = Distinctive (both inherent and circumstancial) 4th Doctor = Distinctive (both inherent and circumstancial) 5th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial) - but if he were to dress "normally", he would definitely be a Face in the Crowd 6th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial; dressing "normally" would NOT, however, make him a Face in the Crowd) 7th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial; dressing "normally" could probably make him a Face in the Crowd - the small, unassuming man etc.)... but if we do NOT consider his clothing and accessories to be eccentric enough to make him Distinctive, then I'd be tempted to say: "neither trait", with the possibility of becoming a Face in the Crowd by dressing up "like everybody". 8th Doctor = Distinctive (circumstancial - but let's face it, his intense, byronic looks will NEVER make him a Face in the Crowd 9th Doctor = apparently, Face in the Crowd is an official consensus here 10th Doctor = Face in the Crowd (according to his official stats) 11th Doctor = Distinctive (both inherent and circumstancial - unforgettable face + bow ties are cool and all that). So, the only "really tough cases" here appear to be the 5th and 7th Doctors... Thoughts ? Counterpoints ? That's a very helpful summary - I hadn't noticed the change in Distinctive from the first edition ruleboook to the 11th Doctor edition. With regard to the 5th and 7th Doctors, I had the 5th down as Distinctive purely on the basis of his clothing, but I agree that without this his personality could make him a Face in the Crowd. As for the 7th, is his clothing that Distinctive? Not sure... I think there's also a case for the 2nd Doctor having the Distinctive trait because of his appearance and mannerisms - an untidy little man with shabby crumpled clothing and clownish behaviour. |
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Post by Curufea on Oct 10, 2012 2:25:05 GMT
Ah, well - if you figure in behaviour, then they're all distinctive. No Doctor behaves in a manner suitable for the time and place they land in - at least not for very long.
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Post by Marnal on Oct 10, 2012 3:00:00 GMT
The remit for the 7th Doctor's costume was that is should look fairly normal at first glance, but on closer examination one should notice just how odd and mixed up it is. [at least that's what the costume designer when trying for!]
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