iggy42
1st Incarnation
Posts: 4
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Post by iggy42 on Dec 7, 2011 22:41:22 GMT
Hi all
I know Daleks should be tough opponents but their armour and force-field combination seems to make them immune to all weapon damage.
Here is how I've interrupted it:
- A Force-field reduces damage by two levels. Lethal would be reduced to a numeric value of 4. (4/L/L)
- Dalek armour is 10 points - alien armour can absorb even lethal damage (TGG pg.112) so the 4 is absorbed...?
I know page 49 of TGG says that energy weapons aren't stopped by armour but the alien armour trait does state it stops lethal damage, and the only lethal damage weapons listed all seem to be energy weapons.
Have I missed something here?
Cheers, iggy
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Post by Curufea on Dec 7, 2011 22:46:43 GMT
No - I'm fine with them being immune to weapon damage.
If you want Daleks to be more vulnerable, use an old series Dalek from when they weren't as upgraded and didn't have force fields. You'll find the write-ups of older Daleks in the section aptly called "write ups"
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus 
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,128
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Dec 8, 2011 12:56:48 GMT
Yes the New Series Daleks are pretty much invulnerable, but there are ways around this.
In order to even damage New Series Daleks, the players will need to find a way to by-pass their Forcefield (much as the Doctor did in Doomsday, when he tinkered with Mickey's anti-Cyberman weapons).
You could also have advanced weapons which are capable of delivering damage greater than Lethal. Stats posted by etheruk on his Bigger on the Inside blog has the Special Weapons Dalek (from Remembrance) capable of inflicting 40(20/40/L) damage, for example. And knasser's version of the Dalek exterminator (from his sadly defunct pdf file) has different settings for variable damage: anti-structural damage for 30(15/30/45) for example. So Lethal isn't necessarily the top limit on weapons damage.
And as Curufea suggests, you could always use Classic Series Daleks, which didn't have Forcefields.
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Post by garethl on Dec 8, 2011 16:04:53 GMT
There is a weak spot in their forcefield, right about where the eye-stalk is. Focus your fire there and you might have a chance ...  Series one finale, where Captain Jack and the crew of Satellite five make a last stand. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 8, 2011 16:54:24 GMT
There is a weak spot in their forcefield, right about where the eye-stalk is. Focus your fire there and you might have a chance ... Yes. Any damage that gets through should affect the Dalek's Awareness. "MY VISION IS IMPAIRED! I CANNOT SEE!" Possibly also Resolve, because they always seem to panic when they can't see. Heck, maybe even Presence, because they always seem so much less terrifying when they start spinning around in panic. |
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iggy42
1st Incarnation
Posts: 4
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Post by iggy42 on Dec 8, 2011 18:52:55 GMT
All makes sense - I think I'll discount Dalek armour when they attacked by their own weapons. Daleks don't seem to have difficulty destroying each other - or when Dalek made weapons are used on them re: Dalek in Manhatten. Great forum here btw - only just found it  Cheers, iggy |
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stahlman
3rd Incarnation
Doctor, stop wasting my time, will you?
Posts: 221
Favourite Doctors: second,third,fourth
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Post by stahlman on Dec 8, 2011 22:00:05 GMT
I tend to use pre Time War Daleks. The TV21 strip Daleks were also less daunting-in the Dalek Book a conventional explosive could take one out.
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Post by Curufea on Dec 9, 2011 1:46:41 GMT
In some cases of Dalek vs Dalek, they may have voluntarily lowered their forcefields (ie in Victory of the Daleks).
There's quite a discussion of ECM vs ECCM in Dalek vs Dalek in the book of Rememberance of the Daleks I believe (unless my memory fails me) - when Imperial Daleks fight the rebels.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,128
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Dec 9, 2011 12:19:05 GMT
Yes, there's some great Dalek vs Dalek combat in the novelisation of Remembrance, with the Imperial faction using ECM devices against the rebels to introduce software viruses and shut down the life-support systems within the Dalek casings, or drown them in their own nutrients, etc. You could use something similar to try to shut down Dalek forcefields.
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snowman
2nd Incarnation
Can't stop
Posts: 23
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Post by snowman on Dec 30, 2011 17:50:41 GMT
Bastic bullets can bypass their ARMOR, but not their force field. However, introducing a penalty for an aimed shot (eyestalk) could allow a good marksman to destroy them. I believe that Captain Jack did actually kill one Dalek.
For Dalekanium rounds, anti-Dalek weaponry, and Dalek weaponry, I would consider just ignoring the forcefield and armor (or at least one). Clearly, weapons that can kill a Dalek tend to do so with a single shot (not counting the Dalek-enhanced tommy guns).
If you want an excuse to provide some basic Dalek weapons to the players, travel to the aftermath of one of the many Dalek Wars, especially the one from the first series.
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Post by kingkaddish on Jan 31, 2012 22:38:54 GMT
I got a Dalek Q for whomever can answer it.
Given the new body design and menacing appearance; save for the power ranger style paint jobs; of the newly created Daleks do you think the new Travel machine is more powerful than the Time War style dalek travel machine?
Or do you think it is mostly a visual improvement only? As so far the onlyupgrade.. well I guess its an upgrade... is that organic eye at the end of the eyestalk now.
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Post by Curufea on Jan 31, 2012 23:28:14 GMT
So far, no Dalek edition has degredated their combat potential. It's always stayed the same or become better (usually becoming better).
My guess, in that the colours are not subtle and the variants are named, is that they now have a more team-like function (Dalek Fortress 2, perhaps?) and would have different roles and special abilities. So we have Supreme, Strategist, Drone, Eternal and Scientist.
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Post by kingkaddish on Feb 1, 2012 23:45:43 GMT
so the presented stats from the Time War Style daleks are basicly thrown out the window now....crap
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Post by Curufea on Feb 2, 2012 7:14:07 GMT
Not so long as the eleventh doctor version of DWAITAS is on hold |
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Post by garethl on Feb 5, 2012 9:14:38 GMT
so the presented stats from the Time War Style daleks are basicly thrown out the window now....crap Might not be the case ...
Spoiler/Rumour for something that might happen in series 7 or 8 Weren't there rumours about a new inter-Dalek conflict between the colored and the Time-War Daleks |
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Post by kingkaddish on Feb 5, 2012 23:34:27 GMT
so the presented stats from the Time War Style daleks are basicly thrown out the window now....crap Might not be the case ...
Spoiler/Rumour for something that might happen in series 7 or 8 Weren't there rumours about a new inter-Dalek conflict between the colored and the Time-War Daleks OH DEAR LORDY!!! I would F'n LOVE a new Dalek war with the new 11th Doctor style Daleks fighting with 9th/10th doctor style Time War Daleks!!! ...sadly, tho we all prob know how it will turn out... those are the [[NEW & improved]] Daleks... "face palm"... an too many ppl like it for it to end up goin out after being introduced....[which sucks]... I "REALLY" hate those "power ranger style dalak paint jobs"... time war colors... vintage dalek colors... or if you HAD TO! MOVIE Dalek colors... but DEAR GOD "PLEASE" GET RID of the new color schemes on the bodys!!! |
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Post by brainsnaffler on Feb 9, 2012 12:47:23 GMT
Lol. Just read this list of reply's and some of the stuff made me chuckle. At least I'm not the only one opposed to the Paradigm daleks! Well... actually, I thought the story was great and the colour scheme didn't bother me too much, it was the actual changing of the eye stalk and giving them fat arses that made my blood boil!
I would freaking LOVE to see a war of the Daleks! What a story that would make... and what a dilemma for the Dr: Which enemy to support?! Also, Steven Moffatt could even do it as a poll beforehand for viewers to vote on who should win the war and the result could then be written as two possible endings!!!! All of this won't happen of course but it's nice to dream.
Anyway, looking at the new Dr Who series, I began to think it was one of those things where writers say something is infallible and then every adventure after it, find yet another way to make it fallible. For example, the 9th Doctor episode "Dalek" made it pretty obvious that the forcefield was impenitrable and then we see all the other episodes where it wasn't.
The most puzzling one for me is the Stolen Earth story with Micky and Rose's mum blowing up daleks as easy as pie, even though the rules (if you ignore the soak rule) kind of dictate that the beam only deals 4 damage in a shot.
Having said that, I think the TV has only ever shown slug throwers actually being stopped by the forcefield and energy weapons always seem to do the trick. So, I guess there's your answer: only energy weapons are effective, and it's basically a dramatic storytelling tool. So, you could interpret it as all guns do next to no damage unless it's a dramatic moment where extra story point expenditure = toasted Dalek
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Post by garethl on Feb 9, 2012 15:03:49 GMT
Oh no! You've reminded me ...
The colors I can live with (reference to classic Daleks).
The size I can live with.
But the eye?
I don't know how to put it, but it IMHO devaluates the "mutant in a shell"-feel a bit.
Slightly more on topic, wouldn't the colour-coded Daleks be weaker:
Vacuum - pop goes the organic eye
Chemicals in the air - burns the organic eye
Viri or bacteria - can enter the Dalek via the eye
Under water - inward-pop this time
Bright flashes - blinds the Dalek
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Post by da professor on Feb 11, 2012 8:48:46 GMT
Oh no! You've reminded me ... The colors I can live with (reference to classic Daleks). The size I can live with. But the eye? I don't know how to put it, but it IMHO devaluates the "mutant in a shell"-feel a bit. Slightly more on topic, wouldn't the colour-coded Daleks be weaker: Vacuum - pop goes the organic eye Chemicals in the air - burns the organic eye Viri or bacteria - can enter the Dalek via the eye Under water - inward-pop this time Bright flashes - blinds the Dalek Unless there's a transparent photochromic lens sealing the end of the eyestalk and protecting the eye. Sheesh, why do people always complain so much when things change? |
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Post by garethl on Feb 11, 2012 16:40:26 GMT
Oh no! You've reminded me ... The colors I can live with (reference to classic Daleks). The size I can live with. But the eye? I don't know how to put it, but it IMHO devaluates the "mutant in a shell"-feel a bit. Slightly more on topic, wouldn't the colour-coded Daleks be weaker: Vacuum - pop goes the organic eye Chemicals in the air - burns the organic eye Viri or bacteria - can enter the Dalek via the eye Under water - inward-pop this time Bright flashes - blinds the Dalek Unless there's a transparent photochromic lens sealing the end of the eyestalk and protecting the eye. Yes, a lens. However, it would still be a downgrade, since a camera-thing could record things outside the, for the Dalek eye, visible spectrum or play it back later or relay it to a leader Dalek. Think of it like inertia. People don't like (to) change. It takes extra investment(energy) to get used to and learn to like new things. Also nostalgia: for example, for a whole generation the Time War style Dalek is their "first" Dalek, whenever they see one they remember all the episodes, good bits, etc. In other words: they have a positive emotional value whereas the new ones don't. Some might even say they have a negative value for having killed the old Daleks. When a change occurs you basically have three options: accept it, change it or complain about it. Accepting is often silent, changing it is difficult (or in this case almost impossible), so you'll hear a lot of people complaining, because complaining is the easiest and most vocal option. Yes, I took the easy option! |
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,128
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Feb 11, 2012 17:21:32 GMT
Unless there's a transparent photochromic lens sealing the end of the eyestalk and protecting the eye. Yes, a lens. However, it would still be a downgrade, since a camera-thing could record things outside the, for the Dalek eye, visible spectrum or play it back later or relay it to a leader Dalek. Who's to say the new eye can't do all those things? Perhaps the visual signals received via the eye are downloaded into the Dalek's systems through its cybernetic links, where they can be stored and processed as needed. Obviously I'm just making this up, but this is sci-fi (or nearly so) after all. For me, the organic eye was one of the best things about the new design. Creepy. |
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Post by Greyhound1 on Sept 1, 2012 4:25:01 GMT
Even the older generation Daleks were pretty much impervious to small arms fire. They are extreamly hard to kill in the series, and this should be reflected in the RPG.
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stahlman
3rd Incarnation
Doctor, stop wasting my time, will you?
Posts: 221
Favourite Doctors: second,third,fourth
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Post by stahlman on Sept 1, 2012 6:59:49 GMT
I prefer using the Daleks as in the TV Century 21 comic strip-a good bite from a Saturnian dinosaur and they are toast.In a Star Fleet Battles/Prime Directive/Dr Who crossover campaign I ran a few years back the Dalek Hovabouts could gang up and take out a Federation fast patrol cruiser which seemed about right. The new series Dalek could probably obliterate the USS Enterprise single handed. Hey,that's not a bad idea.
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Post by Marnal on Sept 1, 2012 15:15:13 GMT
I like my Daleks immune to all bullets, and death rays, and most types of explosives. And a hit from their guns should be automatic death. The PCs should be crapping their pants every time one shows up.
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Post by Corone on Sept 1, 2012 15:19:20 GMT
Even the older generation Daleks were pretty much impervious to small arms fire. They are extreamly hard to kill in the series, and this should be reflected in the RPG. It did seem to me that the more UNIT soldiers shoot at a beastie, the more impervious to bullets it becomes! |
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Post by Greyhound1 on Sept 1, 2012 16:33:58 GMT
Even the older generation Daleks were pretty much impervious to small arms fire. They are extreamly hard to kill in the series, and this should be reflected in the RPG. It did seem to me that the more UNIT soldiers shoot at a beastie, the more impervious to bullets it becomes! If memory serves I believe "The Brigs Boys" were only able to destroy a Dalek with either AT weapons, or other type of HE device. |
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Post by Pertwee on Sept 1, 2012 23:59:49 GMT
Remember that the weapons listed in the game are largely personal arms, not really heavy weapons, like AT Guns and so on and the lethal setting is really meant for living targets of roughly human size. And a Dalek is, if you think about it, many levels of bad above that: basically a human sized flying tank that, individually, should make you crap your pants in fear of meeting one in personal combat.
It's just a matter of scale. The core box is about the standard Doctor Who model, in which guns are bad and one should fear for their lives when the energy weapons come out. The UNIT book is about large scale military action and fighting off full-scale alien invasions, so that's when the big guns usually make an appearance. There are weapons that can do much more damage, and you'll find plenty of them in the UNIT book that can take out a Dalek, force-field of no.
And for those interested in the TTC, there are a new selection of 'Apocalyptic Traits' for weapons of Time War caliber, that would make a mockery of any defense, even a Daleks...
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