THE \/ince
2nd Incarnation
THE OTHER
Cloister this!
Posts: 66
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Post by THE \/ince on Dec 24, 2009 16:14:24 GMT
One of the things I like about the game is that the game system is in both the Players Guide and the Gamemaster's Guide (although with differences in information; GM stuff mainly in the GM's guide etc.. A lot of the time in my group, I am the only one with the rules, and when someone asks to see the book, I often don't have it when I need it. This will not happen with this game. Allen Amen to that one! I'm sick of having to give my books to players mid game so they can look something up they intend on using, and then find that I need the book back. THE \/ince
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Post by JohnK on Dec 24, 2009 16:42:45 GMT
Hullo, BadCatMan, First off, welcome to the DW: AiTaS forums! Always good to see new folks finding the game and joining the mailing lists and all. Insofar as your comments on the game go, many gamers would say that the d20 rule systems are somewhat "rules heavy" compared to a lot of other games. Two of the things that a game set of mechanics should not do is get in the way of telling the story and should not get in the way of emulating the genre in question, be it space opera, tv sf and fantasy, literary horror, or whatever genre you're playing. A lot of systems these days are very much "rules lite", leaving interpretation of some rules and game situations to the GM, but giving a lot more room for roleplaying rather than roll-playing. Coming from the background of d20 as you're doing, that will likely be the biggest adjustment that you'll need to make when playing and running DW: AiTaS. Just a couple of comments... It seems very easy to make different types of PC and different types of alien, quite easily. I'd been considering running a DW game using d20 Modern, and making creatures and items seemed the most difficult aspect. These are two of the strengths of the game system, imo. If one wants to do a Doctor Who or Farscape game, creating alien species should be simple, not complicated. Same thing wtih creating gadgets and items and the like. I think you'll like the rules for doing this, to be honest, and they'll make your experience running the game that much easier. It does very vague on a lot of matters, like specifically what to roll for certain actions. Often times, it feels like the system is incomplete and unfinished, or like a lazy GM who can't be bothered working it out. I wouldn't go this far. The rules offer a lot of examples of what Attribute and what Skills to roll in combination for tasks, and I believe that once you get the hang of the system, you'll find this relatively easy. The system is definitely not incomplete, and I can tell you there was a lot of playtesting. Sure, new rules will be presented in the forthcoming supplements most likely, but these will enhance the game. Everything you need to run a Doctor Who rpg is in the box. Balance issues also concern me. There's no actual penalty to the Adversary or Amnesia traits and others, only story opportunities that GMs and players ought to work out independent of the rules, I feel. So here, essentially, are free character points. (Am I just too used to power-building in D&D?) Yep, I think so. The taking of a Bad Trait, regardless of its degree, is never about free character point. Playing a character in DW: AiTaS is always going to be about roleplaying the character. As a GM, if a player thinks that taking the Amnesia Trait is going to be a "freebie" points-wise, they're sadly mistaken. Play the Trait, or don't take it, and get those freebie points you want elsewhere. 'Nuff said. I'm already itching to house-rule in a proper initiative system. I can see so many potential action scenes drag into tedium because talkers go first, or fighting-based players miss out because fighters go last. Plus, it would add an element of chance to how encounters turn out ("You see a Dalek turn the corner, too late, it turns and shoots.") The overall bias against combat would seem to erode action, and appears hypocritical in the context of the series itself, where the Doctor himself isn't afraid to break out the Venusian Aikido. [/quote] I wouldn't tinker with the Initiative system at first if I were you. Play the game with the rules as written, and see if they don't give you the Doctor Who experience that you are looking for first. There is no element of chance in the game if the Dalek gets to fire at the characters first, since their weapon does Lethal damage and all. The Initiative system emulates the series very well, and the series itself isn't about violence. The Doctor very rarely engages in physical combat himself, and the concept of an "action" sequence can mean all sorts of other things. In any event, just try the game out as is first, and then make changes if you still feel it's necessary. But above all, enjoy your experience with the game.
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Post by JohnK on Dec 24, 2009 16:53:29 GMT
Hullo, BadCatMan, At first I pondered this, but what you are thinking of is your typical roleplaying system. This isn't it. If you are playing a game in line with the show, you shouldn't have any combat characters among the party. On the other hand... Ian (became a gladiator and a knight), Steven (space fight pilot), Ben (sailor), Jamie, all of UNIT, Leela, Frobisher in the right shape, Ace, older Ace, Roz Forrester, Chris Cwej, Destrii, and Captain Jack could all be considered combat-oriented characters. Oh, and Abslom Daak. (That's about half on tv, half in the EU.) Frankly, when it comes to the Classic series, as opposed to New Who, you can't make these statements stand up. If you look at the Hartnell era, the historical stories were more oriented to physical action (notice I didn't say combat necessarily), and given Hartnell's age, the casting of companions such as Ian, Ben, Steven and so forth makes sense, since the Doctor can't do the physical activity. Troughton's Doctor was also very much of a thinker rather than a fighter, and thus the Jamies of that period. The UNIT period of the series was different, in that Pertwee's Doctor was the first one aimed at the dashing heroic figure. Something that the two earlier Doctors weren't. However, all of that said, the series is not, and never has been, about violence on the part of the Doctor (other than when he's not quite himself).
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Post by kaemaril on Dec 24, 2009 16:58:21 GMT
Amen to that one! I'm sick of having to give my books to players mid game so they can look something up they intend on using, and then find that I need the book back. THE \/ince That's one of the reasons that, traditionally, I've always bought multiple copies of the game I run - so I can keep a copy, and the players still have a copy (or copies) to reference for themselves. The other reason is that I have a bad memory RE: Game balance for certain 'bad' traits ... I must admit, I much prefer HEX/Ubiquity's versions of bad traits ... nothing to purchase at creation time, but can be used to generate extra style points when the player uses it. It gives a mechanical as well as story reason for the player(s) to want a bad trait. I'll have to think about seeing if we can do something similar here.
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Post by CharlieBananas on Dec 24, 2009 17:28:48 GMT
Hey Kaemaril check out players book page 78 "I can't do that, I just can't..." I think the guys at C7 like HEX too!
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Post by kaemaril on Dec 24, 2009 17:38:39 GMT
Hey Kaemaril check out players book page 78 "I can't do that, I just can't..." Yeah, I've seen it - I just think that's a bit woolly. It's not really all that much of a mechanical incentive, though I doubt I could think of anything much better I should certainly hope so! ;D
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Post by BadCatMan on Dec 25, 2009 0:50:56 GMT
I seemed to have caused a ruckus. ;D I probably should have expected Doctor Who fans to come down like a ton of bricks on a negative review... But this is the First Impressions thread after all, and I've already started advertising for players (no joy, none of the applicants so far have the system yet - wait, just got one who does!). I actually discovered this site a few weeks ago, after hearing about Cubicle 7 shutting down their boards, in the discussion thread at Gallifrey Base. I made an account when these boards stopped being public (why?) then lurked for a while. Extra books: They seem a bit redundant to a PbP player/GM, since there's no tabletop, and other players are on the opposite side of the world. And I've never seen a problem with sharing books anyway (as long as they don't get damaged). On the other, the simplicity has renewed my interest in tabletop GMing, so maybe one day... Adversary: I assume that a recurring villain would be something the GM would want to come up with with themselves. If you're going to have one anyway... then is there a need for a Trait to give you one? d20: I don't think I've ever had much of a problem with rules getting in the way of the story, or with them being too unwieldy. Maybe it's just a matter of familiarity and experience, or that I have the time to look stuff up, like the infamous Grappling rules. Most of the time, the rules support the role-play, or at least get out of the way fast enough (like when a group recently negotiated peace with an attacking force of lizardfolk, after eventually overcoming prejudice to work out that the lizards were mistaken and they were on the same side). To explain, I DM six games and help manage a community of dozen others, all set in the classic Forgotten Realms setting with D&D 3.5, pbp. I guess some would say I've been forged in fire or something. ;D Merry Christmas! (It being Christmas morning here and now.)
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Post by allenshock on Dec 25, 2009 1:51:44 GMT
Nothing wrong with D20..I run it and enjoy it. I've just had to learn to work aorund the bits I don't like like I have with most every game I have owned and ran. As for a "ruckus"..yeah, some of us really like this game I don't think it's a bad thing to discuss this sort of thing at all. I don't think anyone resents your opinion at all...I just happen to disagree with some of it. Allen
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Post by kaemaril on Dec 25, 2009 2:04:16 GMT
Adversary: I assume that a recurring villain would be something the GM would want to come up with with themselves. If you're going to have one anyway... then is there a need for a Trait to give you one? Don't think of it as giving you one - think of it as signaling your willingness to have one thrust upon you ;D
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Post by JohnK on Dec 25, 2009 4:45:20 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, RE: Game balance for certain 'bad' traits ... I must admit, I much prefer HEX/Ubiquity's versions of bad traits ... nothing to purchase at creation time, but can be used to generate extra style points when the player uses it. It gives a mechanical as well as story reason for the player(s) to want a bad trait. I'll have to think about seeing if we can do something similar here. Actually, the equivalent of Traits in HEX/Ubiquity are different than those found here, since they don't tend to occur as "good" traits per se. Players only get one Talent in HEX free at the beginning of play, and must pay 15 points (usually the Experience points received late in character generation) to pick up a second one. Some GMs allow players to have a second one free, but it depends on the campaign that one is running. The Motivations and Flaws, on the other hand, are kind of neat and how they are rewarded with Style points. The Traits in DW: AiTaS are rewarded using Story Points, but I don't think it has quite the same emphasis as their equivalents do in HEX. It's something that I feel could be ported over somehow, but for now, I'm content to leave the system alone as is and see how it shakes out in actual play.
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Post by JohnK on Dec 25, 2009 4:47:18 GMT
Hullo, Mike, Hey Kaemaril check out players book page 78 "I can't do that, I just can't..." I think the guys at C7 like HEX too! Yeah, I got that impression from them at GenCon 2008, too! And it was kind of neat to read in the Player's Guide.
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Post by kaemaril on Dec 25, 2009 5:14:18 GMT
The Motivations and Flaws, on the other hand, are kind of neat and how they are rewarded with Style points. Yes, I should have been more explicit. I was comparing bad traits to flaws. I much prefer the idea of flaws not costing you anything in chargen but acting as a style/story point generator in play ...
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Post by Curufea on Dec 25, 2009 10:00:03 GMT
D20 (or any version of D&D) is to roleplaying what Basic is to programming. It works, but it teaches bad habits, and you end up spending more time creating work arounds than working on creations.
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Post by JohnK on Dec 25, 2009 17:14:18 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, The Motivations and Flaws, on the other hand, are kind of neat and how they are rewarded with Style points. Yes, I should have been more explicit. I was comparing bad traits to flaws. I much prefer the idea of flaws not costing you anything in chargen but acting as a style/story point generator in play ... Ah, in that context, your original comments make more sense. I'm not sure that you can compare the Bad Traits to Flaws, simply because they seem to incorporate other things into them as well. The only good thing is the point cost/reward balance factor that's present in DW: AiTaS, but who knows what kind of developments we'll see as the game evolves more with future products?
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Post by The Handyman on Dec 26, 2009 0:32:31 GMT
D20 (or any version of D&D) is to roleplaying what Basic is to programming. It works, but it teaches bad habits, and you end up spending more time creating work arounds than working on creations. Let's not get into criticizing other people's games. Lots of people like d20 and it works just fine for them. I would prefer to see our efforts concentrated on extoling the virtues of the Doctor Who game. Allen
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Post by allivingstone on Dec 26, 2009 13:18:00 GMT
d20: I don't think I've ever had much of a problem with rules getting in the way of the story, or with them being too unwieldy. Maybe it's just a matter of familiarity and experience, or that I have the time to look stuff up, like the infamous Grappling rules. Most of the time, the rules support the role-play, or at least get out of the way fast enough (like when a group recently negotiated peace with an attacking force of lizardfolk, after eventually overcoming prejudice to work out that the lizards were mistaken and they were on the same side). I don't think anyone is trying to say that you've been having badwrongfun by using d20 or D&D 3.x in the past. However, if the philosophy of its design is your primary/sole experience of RPGs, Doctor Who is going to be a massive culture shock. For instance, in DWAITAS, the relationship of the GM to the system is closer to that of an 'old school' game. You might find this booklet helpful for getting your head round where a lot of the folk on these boards are coming from, and it's a quick read.
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rsaintjohn
2nd Incarnation
The Threefold Man
Posts: 77
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Post by rsaintjohn on Dec 26, 2009 17:10:45 GMT
Great recommendation on the old school primer, Al. As someone who has been gaming since the 70s, that document really opened my eyes earlier this year and helped me remember the more freeform approach we took to gaming back then. It's one that applies quite well to a game as new as DWAITAS.
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Post by Rel Fexive on Dec 26, 2009 18:58:35 GMT
Just to say I am finally reading my copy, and I am very impressed with what I've seen so far. And on Tuesday I'll see how it plays too
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Post by jainaxf on Dec 28, 2009 10:43:38 GMT
Hello everyone ! I'm a French girl who got the game for Christmas (it seems to have a certain niche success in France among the geeks and gamers). I have finished reading it and I love it ! I really enjoyed the box, my only regrets are the dice (I woiuld have liked to have special dice with tardises instead of 6's) and the story points and gadgets that come off a little too easily. On the game itself now : I like the system, I think it is close to the spirit of the series and easy to understand ! The only thing that is a little weird for a seasoned gamer is the absence of health/life points, replaced by temporarily reducung some of your attributes. But it probably only takes some getting used to. I alos think it was really well thought to introduce new people to RPGs with a lot of explanations and advice ! I also like the initiative system and the story points, it adds to the fun ! As for the adventure books, I am a little bit disappointed : the scenarios proposed don't appeal to my taste and as we will play without the Doctor, they are not always easy to adapt. But, on the whole, I am really glad I got the games and I think it is really a very good product ! I can't wait for the screens and some source-books (even if I already got The Time Traveller's almanach) !
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Post by kaemaril on Dec 28, 2009 11:03:26 GMT
Hello everyone ! I'm a French girl who got the game for Christmas (it seems to have a certain niche success in France among the geeks and gamers). I have finished reading it and I love it ! Hello, jainaxf! Welcome to the forums!
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Post by giftedmunchkin on Dec 28, 2009 21:46:32 GMT
Okay, I'd checked it out before, but the game finally came in for real today. Everything is so shiny!
Very, very excited. Although what's with the "Read this First" page being in the bottom of the box?
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Post by Rel Fexive on Dec 28, 2009 22:57:11 GMT
I know, funny isn't it?
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Post by JohnK on Dec 29, 2009 3:59:11 GMT
Hullo, Jainaxf, \ Hello everyone ! I'm a French girl who got the game for Christmas (it seems to have a certain niche success in France among the geeks and gamers). I have finished reading it and I love it ! Bonjour, Jainaxf. Welcome to the DW: AiTaS forums! Good to meet a new discoverer of the game! You'll find the folks around here quite friendly, and I look forward to discussing the game and the series with you here. A bientot!
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Jason_WPGL
2nd Incarnation
Lord of CthuWho
Live Full, Die Empty
Posts: 152
Favourite Doctors: 2, 4, 6, 8, War, 11, 12
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Post by Jason_WPGL on Dec 30, 2009 23:14:31 GMT
Finally my copy has arrived! And it looks FANTASTIC!
Sadly, I am still waiting on my originial pre-order to arrive...it has yet to arrive. So I ordered a second copy from another source Sunday night (WhoNA) and it arrived today. YEAH!
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Post by Curufea on Dec 30, 2009 23:23:42 GMT
I'll probably be buying another copy when my FLGS gets it as mine arrived damaged. So my pre-order then becomes my lending copy
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Post by allivingstone on Dec 30, 2009 23:42:13 GMT
I'll probably be buying another copy when my FLGS gets it as mine arrived damaged. So my pre-order then becomes my lending copy I finally got my copy today - box damaged but books OK (except for very slight bubbling at the edge of the GM Guide's cover ). Don't know whether it's play.com or the Royal Mail to blame for the box. Looks to me like the corner or edge of something heavy landed on it. I'm just trying to work up the energy to do the 'irate customer' thing - after the new year methinks.
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rsaintjohn
2nd Incarnation
The Threefold Man
Posts: 77
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Post by rsaintjohn on Dec 31, 2009 0:53:39 GMT
WEIRD.
I too had one of my copies arrived with a crunched corner (this was weeks ago, preorder from FRP Games here in the States, via FedEx Ground). I decided not to make a big deal about it as this would be my "players" copy, and hoped that my other order (from WhoNA) would arrive okay (it did).
As I told customer service at FRP Games, a big part of the problem was pushing the game into a US standard 9"x12" box (which is actually a little larger in each dimension) when the game box itself is 9.5" wide. So any major shock/crunch the shipping box gets impacts the game. FRP told me they'd switch boxes from now on.
I only bring it up because I have so few items damaged in shipping, yet here are at least three of us that had the same problem with the game. I wonder if C7 made an iffy choice with this size packaging based on industry standards for shipping boxes?
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Post by Curufea on Dec 31, 2009 1:04:03 GMT
It was 50/50 as well - if it was either of the two corners on the left side, none of the books and sheets would have been damaged - just the dice possibly, or the cardboard separator.
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Post by damocles on Dec 31, 2009 1:34:20 GMT
I got the game a few weeks ago and it has excellent production values. I was also impressed with the lack of typing errors (I spotted one minor typo) and the whole thing reads very clearly.
My family normally plays D and D and this fits in perfectly with our wish to have a more freeform system to play now and again. All my children love Dr Who so I'm on to a winner already. We have only just started Character creation which my son loved doing from scratch. My other two Children chose pre created characters.
I can already see this as a potentially deep system despite its apparent simplicity. This is because it rewards or punishes according to the player working in accordance with his character, including the bad aspects. Story Points are a great concept which will lead to agonising decisions.
I also really like the way combat is not ignored but is the last resort, as it is in the series.
I do hope there will be some campaigns produced as I'm not very good at making my own.
Anyway I'm very impressed with the whole package and I think C7 have put a lot of thought and effort into it.
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Post by allenshock on Dec 31, 2009 1:48:25 GMT
I got the game a few weeks ago and it has excellent production values. I was also impressed with the lack of typing errors (I spotted one minor typo) and the whole thing reads very clearly. My family normally plays D and D and this fits in perfectly with our wish to have a more freeform system to play now and again. All my children love Dr Who so I'm on to a winner already. We have only just started Character creation which my son loved doing from scratch. My other two Children chose pre created characters. I can already see this as a potentially deep system despite its apparent simplicity. This is because it rewards or punishes according to the player working in accordance with his character, including the bad aspects. Story Points are a great concept which will lead to agonising decisions. I also really like the way combat is not ignored but is the last resort, as it is in the series. I do hope there will be some campaigns produced as I'm not very good at making my own. Anyway I'm very impressed with the whole package and I think C7 have put a lot of thought and effort into it. In the Campaigns and Scenarios section you will find an adventure called "The Chicago Way" that I wrote with lots of help from Trevellian and others on the board. That might give you a couple sessions of fun Allen
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