doc4
1st Incarnation
Posts: 1 
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Post by doc4 on Mar 5, 2010 19:04:29 GMT
Hello there,
I am a Veteran GM of some 28 years of experience. I have 25+ game systems in the closet next to me (including FASA's Doctor Who), another 20 in PDF form, and have been using a custom system for years now.
My group is going to play the new Doctor Who RPG in a week and I am trying to get my head around a few things and could use your help.
TARDIS Movement
I understand that the TARDIS dematerializes, moves through the Vortex, and reappears at a new location or time. In the show, the TARDIS can be seen twirling through the air or through space. Sometimes this even happens after dematerializing. So, when does the TARDIS physically move from point A to B and when does it disappear/reappear? Only as needed for the story? Has there been any consistency in the setting so far?
Going Back in Time Just a Little
I imagine the questions of "Why don't we just go back 15 minutes so I can reroll that big failure?" or "Why don't we go back in time 1 week and wipeout the enemy before they get setup in their plan and nip it in the bud?"
Watching the last show of "Series 1", the Doctor says he can't go back as it is part of his own time line. Yet, earlier in that very season Father's Day, he and Rose go back a few minutes and are watching themselves from behind. The Doctor then says they can only go back one time, otherwise it gets dangerous.
So how can I find some solid way of explaining this to the players? I understand the show has fallible writers that do the best they can to make the story work, and that I need to do the same, but I am looking for a consistent logic to give to my players.
Story Points
This is the big issue that is of concern to both me and my players in our pregame discussion. Mind you, we have NOT played yet, so we do not have any practical application, but we do see some issues with Story Points that have all of us a little concerned.
First, Story Points are great. We love the concept. They are right out of the Spirit of the Century RPG but without the limitations of needing keywords to trigger from. We are excited to use them.
The main issue with them is their relative ease of getting them combined with a very linear progression in spending them to get nearly exponential reward.
For example, you can spend 1-2 points to adjust a roll or make a minor story change. Spending 3-4 allows you to have a big change of events like a group of police that WILL help the situation show up. Seems like I would just not spend the 1-2 and wait to get the much bigger bang for my buck with 3-4. And then you have spending just 7-8 points being able to have a human magically suck in dangerous TARDIS energy to then wipeout the entire race of Daleks. That is massive. Truely massive.
This would all be fine if the players started with say 3 points, got a few throughout the adventure, and then spent a few. If they held on to their points throughout the session, they might be able to do a big bang 7-8 pointer at the finale. But the characters start wtih 12 points on average. 12 points. That means they can spend a little loose throughout the game (4 points) and still destroy major races and completely affect the finale with 8 points remaining. And that's EACH player. That's intense.
I don't mind the players affecting the story. I know I can throw some challenges at them early on to maybe soak up the story points, but it seems like it is far too many for far too powerful of affects. Any comments on your play? Suggestions?
My intial idea is to make the rewards more geometric in price. Level 1 is like 1-3, Level 2 (police helping) is 3-7, Level 3 8-13, Level 4 (Rose killing all Daleks) being something like 14-20. Just brainstorming these numbers here. These even seem to match the games description of Story Points in "Your an incredible man but I didn't think it was possible for you to.." situation. They say the GM might talk with the player to agree to give them tons on bonus points to pull off the impossible if they do something heroic or suffer some challenges, but the players don't need a big gift when they can already pull off a universe altering effect right from the start and still have 50% of their points remaining.
My other goal with the points is to make them more a trickle, players spending and receiving plenty throughout play. I have seen a review where their play session was just dominated by players hoarding their points to just whallop the finale in the end.
I want players to affect the finale. I want them to use them throughout the session. I just dont want them affecting to much so easily so quickly or just easily changing everything about the finale with hoarded points.
Tom / Doc4
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Post by Siskoid on Mar 5, 2010 23:21:42 GMT
The GM is the final arbiter on what players can and cannot purchase in the game. You don't have to allow them to turn into Bad Wolf. If you do, then there's an example cost. But you don't have to.
I've played twice this week, and in both cases, players have been spending points mostly on fixing or doubling rolls through the game, with only minor tweaks to the plot. The Doctor Who genre (if we can give it its own genre) includes some pretty outrageous solutions, and I've found that to be true in my games. Often that costs points. Letting them know the target number is crazy high will certainly make them burn story points without the need for major plot twists. They're using their abilities to do extreme things, not changing the world to suit their abilities, if you get my drift.
I also think a clear social contract with players is paramount. My own group considers the game a spin-off of the show, so they try to make their adventures feel like the episodes. They don't do 10x10 room exploration and treasure hording. They allow themselves to be captured. As much as possible, they think outside the box when it comes to solutions (nullifying a sound attack by singing some Queen to SAVE a queen? How very RTD of them). I've even found the infodump moments with NPCs better acted as a result (and I cast each story with known actors). The point is: If they know they have to adhere to some rules of drama, they won't be quick to abuse story points like they were superpowers, but use them in fun and meaningful ways.
The success of a DWAITAS game, for me, isn't whether the scenario was difficult (though some will be more than others), but whether the story came off as cool, crazy and heroic. If it's memorable, it's a winner.
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Post by Siskoid on Mar 5, 2010 23:28:15 GMT
As for your other questions...
The first: It doesn't matter unless it does. In other words, don't worry about it. If the players (or you) want it to fly, let it fly. If you want it to vanish, then it does. The only question should be: Which is most dramatic in this moment.
On 15-minute trips back, I handle them in the same exact way as the show. Does it have a dramatic purpose? If so, it might be done. If not, then no. While it's possible to do it, I'd certainly require a player to spend lots of Story Points for changing his/her own past/future. It should be a momentous event where the time lord is playing with paradoxes. This is a 12-story point move. And it could be fun.
If only for a parlour trick, ask for a couple points, makes a fun moment. If it would completely destroy a game, is a cheap ploy, not dramatic or déjà vu, don't allow it at all. The "old girl" doesn't want to play that day. The TARDIS has a mind of its own and only rarely breaks the universe's rules.
Sometimes, the only way to explain what happens on the show is by citing dramatic imperative. And the game wants you to do that too. That's why words trump guns, and story points are handed out.
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Post by kaemaril on Mar 6, 2010 11:00:51 GMT
On 15-minute trips back, I handle them in the same exact way as the show. Does it have a dramatic purpose? If so, it might be done. If not, then no. While it's possible to do it, I'd certainly require a player to spend lots of Story Points for changing his/her own past/future. It should be a momentous event where the time lord is playing with paradoxes. This is a 12-story point move. And it could be fun. Indeed. The Doctor (Smith & Jones): Crossing into established events is strictly forbidden. Except for cheap tricks The Doctor (The End of Time, part I): I can't go back inside my own timeline. I have to stay relative to the Master within the causal nexus. Understand? The Monitor (Logopolis): If you destroy Logopolis, you unravel the whole causal nexus! Buggering around with time is a huge and not to be done lightly (apart from cheap tricks, obviously  ) thing, as various eps have shown. Breaking cause and effect is difficult, dangerous, and can (if you're not careful, and it's a big enough thing) cause time (and, thus, reality) to unravel. The definition of 'big enough thing' is variable (see Father's Day), and really only extensively experienced timelords know to recognise the 'really big things' on the fly. IIRC, in that episode the mere presence of a second Doctor and Rose was enough to weaken the fabric of Space/Time slightly... And whilst that ep shows just how dangerous changing time can be, it does also show that time can be changed in some ways. At the beginning of the ep Pete Tyler dies alone ... at the end there's a girl who was with him. There has always been a girl who was with him. btw, the wikipedia entry on Father's Day has some interesting stuff on changing history in Doctor Who ... |
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Post by ugavine on Mar 7, 2010 19:00:24 GMT
TARDIS movement
It's an abstract. You see it drifting about when the story needs it to, otherwise it just dematerialises.
Going back in time
Fathers Day should give you the solution. If players are trying to abuse this then throw Reapers at them. They kill The Doctor, so you're PCs are going to be in trouble. Basically if they cause a Paradox you can make virtually anything happen as a result. Meeting themselves can cause amnesia (Mawdrun Undead) temporal explosions, etc. Any self-respecting Time Lord should b not be doing this. You can always deduct Story Points.
Story Points
Yes, story points can be powerful, but you also have to rmember that at the end of the day you are still GM. You still have the yay or nay on the use of Story Points. If the players are just trying to 'cheat' the aventure, then the simple answer is, "No." Or ask for more story points than they have. I think the rulebook suggests Rose absorbing the Time Vortex was 12 Story Points. So just limit how many you dish out.
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Post by Bob the Rutan on Mar 11, 2010 13:14:02 GMT
The Blinovitch Limitation Effect limits the degree to which a person can cross and affect their own timeline. Violating that Effect can bring out the Reapers, weeping angels, or any number of nasties. You might also want to look up "paradox" at the tardis Wiki that I linked to... It talks a lot about how paradox works specific to Doctor Who. |
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skagra
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 59
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Post by skagra on Mar 19, 2010 0:03:47 GMT
The GM is the final arbiter on what players can and cannot purchase in the game. You don't have to allow them to turn into Bad Wolf. If you do, then there's an example cost. But you don't have to. Absolutely correct. I think of them as a system to encourage and govern the players help you create the story. If they have a good idea for the story the pitch it to you. If you like it, you can buy it or sell it to them for story points. ...This would all be fine if the players started with say 3 points, got a few throughout the adventure, and then spent a few. If they held on to their points throughout the session, they might be able to do a big bang 7-8 pointer at the finale. But the characters start wtih 12 points on average. 12 points. That means they can spend a little loose throughout the game (4 points) and still destroy major races and completely affect the finale with 8 points remaining. And that's EACH player. That's intense. I don't believe they automatically refresh themselves at the end of each story, though. You can them in otherwise hopeless situations to force them be creative and spend their points. This in turn will encourage them to suggest barriers and setbacks for themselves to earn the points, doing your work for you (or rather sharing the workload). |
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Post by JohnK on Mar 19, 2010 14:48:21 GMT
Hullo, skagra, ...This would all be fine if the players started with say 3 points, got a few throughout the adventure, and then spent a few. If they held on to their points throughout the session, they might be able to do a big bang 7-8 pointer at the finale. But the characters start wtih 12 points on average. 12 points. That means they can spend a little loose throughout the game (4 points) and still destroy major races and completely affect the finale with 8 points remaining. And that's EACH player. That's intense. I don't believe they automatically refresh themselves at the end of each story, though. You can them in otherwise hopeless situations to force them be creative and spend their points. This in turn will encourage them to suggest barriers and setbacks for themselves to earn the points, doing your work for you (or rather sharing the workload). Story Points return to whatever the maximum is for the character at the beginning of each scenario. Thus, even if a character with a normal maximum of 12 Story Points finishes an adventure with 20 Story Points, he starts the next adventure with his normal maximum of 12. I am convinced, after my experience running DW: AiTaS now for some time (though not as long as some of the playtesters and writers of the game, of course) that the reason players don't use Story Points and hoard them is because they're not clear on what Story Points are for. This can be allieviated somewhat by the GM going through the uses for which Story Points can be spent with the players before the game session. And to borrow an unwritten rule from the Ubiquity system about Style points there, which can translate easily to DW: AiTaS, "You've got to use them to earn them." But that might considered extreme. |
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Post by kabukiman on Mar 19, 2010 16:11:15 GMT
Thus, even if a character with a normal maximum of 12 Story Points finishes an adventure with 20 Story Points, he starts the next adventure with his normal maximum of 12. What counts as an adventure though? Using the television analogy, would an adventure be an episode or a season? |
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skagra
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 59
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Post by skagra on Mar 19, 2010 16:34:13 GMT
Story Points return to whatever the maximum is for the character at the beginning of each scenario. Thus, even if a character with a normal maximum of 12 Story Points finishes an adventure with 20 Story Points, he starts the next adventure with his normal maximum of 12. Check page sixty three: I'm new to DWAITAS, but if I find all my obstacles are being too easily overcome with story points, I'll be stingy on replenishing them (and perhasps warn them in advance). But I'm going to try to put my players in impossible situations and force them to invent convenient plot twists (which they'll pay for) in order to succeed. I'd like to make them cautious to use them when they're not absolutely needed, concerned they may need them for later. That's my plan, anyway. Next session I run will be started with a story point tutorial, to be certain. I really like the thought that the players can have input into the plot beyond the actions of their character. GM's discretion, of course. This game is a lot different than the D&D I grew up on! |
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skagra
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 59
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Post by skagra on Mar 19, 2010 16:36:44 GMT
What counts as an adventure though? Using the television analogy, would an adventure be an episode or a season? One continuous story, I think. An episode, but maybe a multi parter. |
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Post by JohnK on Mar 19, 2010 21:34:25 GMT
Hullo, kabukiman, Thus, even if a character with a normal maximum of 12 Story Points finishes an adventure with 20 Story Points, he starts the next adventure with his normal maximum of 12. What counts as an adventure though? Using the television analogy, would an adventure be an episode or a season? Oh, boy... Okay, I'll preface this by saying that some folks are going to disagree with me, either that or I've opened up a can of worms here... An adventure consists of a single plot that has a beginning, middle, and an end. In Classic Who terms, this would be a complete serial of (usually) between 4 and 6 episodes. In the New Who, this would be a 45-minute episode, or sometmes two or three episodes in length. A plot like the Bad Wolf business from Eccleston's Doctor's period is a story arc that crosses throughout the whole season. A season would consist of a series of adventures, regardless of how many episodes it takes to complete each adventure. How's that? For some good examples of how different GMs here are handling adventures for the game, you should check out the Campaign section of the forums. My UNIT player group, for example, has done 2 adventures so far, but each one has consisted of at least 4 episodes. My $0.02. Hope this helps. |
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Post by JohnK on Mar 19, 2010 21:43:11 GMT
Hullo, skagra, Story Points return to whatever the maximum is for the character at the beginning of each scenario. Thus, even if a character with a normal maximum of 12 Story Points finishes an adventure with 20 Story Points, he starts the next adventure with his normal maximum of 12. Check page sixty three:
When the adventure is over, the characters usually heal all their wounds, and if their story points are above their maximum, they are reduced back to 12 (or whatever their maximum is). If they have less than that, the Gamemaster will just replenish what they think is fitting depending on how well they played.
Which is exactly what I said. While I said "Beginning" rather than "at the end of the adventure", it amounts to the same thing. The last line to me doesn't necessarily mean that one gives them more Story Points than they are entitled to; that comes as a *reward* for good gaming or whatever. I'm new to DWAITAS, but if I find all my obstacles are being too easily overcome with story points, I'll be stingy on replenishing them (and perhasps warn them in advance). But I'm going to try to put my players in impossible situations and force them to invent convenient plot twists (which they'll pay for) in order to succeed. I'd like to make them cautious to use them when they're not absolutely needed, concerned they may need them for later. That's my plan, anyway. Next session I run will be started with a story point tutorial, to be certain. How about an example of an obstacle that was too easy for the players to overcome with Story Points? One point I should make here is that GM's should *not* be stingy with Story Points. There's a difference between not giving the players Story Points because they're not using them, and not giving them Story Points because the players aren't earning them. While obstacles are relatively easy to overcome with Story Points, a player relying on fate and luck that way isn't exercising the wits that the character has, and that's not roleplaying per se. Bear in mind the GM has the right to veto the use of Story Points to solve dilemmas and the like, but one should always encourage the players. I really like the thought that the players can have input into the plot beyond the actions of their character. GM's discretion, of course. This game is a lot different than the D&D I grew up on! You got that right! |
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) thing, as various eps have shown. Breaking cause and effect is difficult, dangerous, and can (if you're not careful, and it's a big enough thing) cause time (and, thus, reality) to unravel.
