Eternally Lost Zeppo
3rd Incarnation
The Lonely God
Posts: 246
Favourite Doctors: David Tennant, Matt Smith, Peter Davidson
|
Post by Eternally Lost Zeppo on Feb 23, 2010 3:55:08 GMT
I don't recall seeing any specific rule against it in the book, but should there perhaps be a restriction against Time Lord characters having both the Experienced and Experienced Time Lord traits?
The Time Lord player in my group at the university RP society took both, and it seems to me that it makes the character somewhat more broken than is strictly necessary.
|
|
|
|
Post by kaemaril on Feb 23, 2010 4:11:29 GMT
I don't recall seeing any specific rule against it in the book, but should there perhaps be a restriction against Time Lord characters having both the Experienced and Experienced Time Lord traits? The Time Lord player in my group at the university RP society took both, and it seems to me that it makes the character somewhat more broken than is strictly necessary. I'm not seeing the problem, to be honest. Why is a character with both these traits 'broken'? |
|
Eternally Lost Zeppo
3rd Incarnation
The Lonely God
Posts: 246
Favourite Doctors: David Tennant, Matt Smith, Peter Davidson
|
Post by Eternally Lost Zeppo on Feb 23, 2010 4:57:23 GMT
Just in terms of the number of bonus skill points they end up with. It was a complaint made by other players that the system seems to favour Time Lords. Though I suppose the story point loss sort of balances things out as far as Experienced goes.
|
|
|
|
Post by kaemaril on Feb 23, 2010 9:49:11 GMT
Just in terms of the number of bonus skill points they end up with. It was a complaint made by other players that the system seems to favour Time Lords. Though I suppose the story point loss sort of balances things out as far as Experienced goes. Indeed. And any of your non-timelord PCs could also have acquired Experienced - which can be bought multiple times - to get the same sort of boost. IMHO, it's Experienced on its own that could lead to 'broken' characters if players buy it to extremes  |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 23, 2010 16:06:51 GMT
Hullo, lostzeppo, I don't recall seeing any specific rule against it in the book, but should there perhaps be a restriction against Time Lord characters having both the Experienced and Experienced Time Lord traits? The Time Lord player in my group at the university RP society took both, and it seems to me that it makes the character somewhat more broken than is strictly necessary. I don't really see any problem with a character having both the Experienced and Time Lord (Experienced) Traits, as long as they are willing to pay the costs involved. Story Points are an extremely valuable asset in the game, and the loss of Story Points for the purposes of taking Experienced and all has its own checks and balances. In what way do you consider the character to be "broken"? |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 23, 2010 16:11:19 GMT
Hullo, lostzeppo, Just in terms of the number of bonus skill points they end up with. It was a complaint made by other players that the system seems to favour Time Lords. Though I suppose the story point loss sort of balances things out as far as Experienced goes. I can't say that I agree with the fact that the character is broken because the game system seems to favour Time Lords or because the character has lots of points. The game system doesn't favour Time Lords at all in terms of Attributes and Skills, other than a bonus here and there for being a Time Lord and taking that Trait (which also comes with a penalty of its own). The Experienced and Experienced Time Lord Traits are there because, in effect, they allow for the play of older characters (older in the sense of characters of mortal ken, and further into their regenerations in the case of Time Lords). Older, more experienced characters tend to have slightly more Skills and less Attributes (as a general rule, the results of getting older), but the game also reflects this in the loss of Story Points. To me, that's a pretty neat balancing factor. |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 23, 2010 16:13:11 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, Indeed. And any of your non-timelord PCs could also have acquired Experienced - which can be bought multiple times - to get the same sort of boost. IMHO, it's Experienced on its own that could lead to 'broken' characters if players buy it to extremes I don't believe so myself. A player should only have Experienced for a non-Time Lord if the character is just that...older and experienced. And sure, you can take it multiple times, but the cost in Story Points should be weighed here, because of the sheer number of things Story Points do for characters in play. Just my $0.02, of course. |
|
Eternally Lost Zeppo
3rd Incarnation
The Lonely God
Posts: 246
Favourite Doctors: David Tennant, Matt Smith, Peter Davidson
|
Post by Eternally Lost Zeppo on Feb 24, 2010 15:17:43 GMT
Actually, right you are guys.
The player in question found out just how disadvantageous it is to only have one story point when he wanted to do some Jiggery Pokery, and found out that story points are required to do so. I'm allowing him to redo his character so that it works out a bit better overall.
|
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 24, 2010 16:01:40 GMT
Hullo, lostzeppo, Actually, right you are guys. The player in question found out just how disadvantageous it is to only have one story point when he wanted to do some Jiggery Pokery, and found out that story points are required to do so. I'm allowing him to redo his character so that it works out a bit better overall. Always a good move, especially when the player realises they've screwed up somewhat. Doesn't mean he couldn't take the Experienced or TIme Lord (Experienced) Trait, and lose a few Story Points, but I have to admit it would be interesting to see the write-up on the original character. |
|
|
|
Post by kaemaril on Feb 24, 2010 18:43:07 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, Indeed. And any of your non-timelord PCs could also have acquired Experienced - which can be bought multiple times - to get the same sort of boost. IMHO, it's Experienced on its own that could lead to 'broken' characters if players buy it to extremes I don't believe so myself. A player should only have Experienced for a non-Time Lord if the character is just that...older and experienced. And sure, you can take it multiple times, but the cost in Story Points should be weighed here, because of the sheer number of things Story Points do for characters in play. Just my $0.02, of course. Well of course it should. Hence why I said 'to extremes' - like, for example, if a player were to purchase it three or four times ... The player doing so would likely believe that the huge number of extra skill points would in some way compensate for the lower number of story points. And he would likely be wrong, of course. But you'd still end up with a character with skills vastly more impressive with other characters, and that could be put to impressive uses before something requiring story points pop up ... |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 25, 2010 15:45:03 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, Hullo, Kaemaril, I don't believe so myself. A player should only have Experienced for a non-Time Lord if the character is just that...older and experienced. And sure, you can take it multiple times, but the cost in Story Points should be weighed here, because of the sheer number of things Story Points do for characters in play. Just my $0.02, of course. Well of course it should. Hence why I said 'to extremes' - like, for example, if a player were to purchase it three or four times ... The problem I have with this is that I can see a player wanting to take Experienced three or four times to perhaps represent different experience with aspects of their character - a Vietnam vet, experience in the world of early computers, and then a switch to advertising. Otoh, the Time Lord (Experienced) Trait would be taken by a player who wants to play a Time Lord into his fourth or fifth regeneration, and would need the Trait more than twice I would guess. The player doing so would likely believe that the huge number of extra skill points would in some way compensate for the lower number of story points. That raises the question fo whether higher Skills compensate for Story Points. Since the number of Story Points is the maximum between adventures, and a character can have any number of Story Points during play, I'm not sure the Skills do compensate in this fashion. And he would likely be wrong, of course. But you'd still end up with a character with skills vastly more impressive with other characters, and that could be put to impressive uses before something requiring story points pop up ... Sure thing. From my own game experience, I tend to make sure that the player justifies taking the Experienced and/or Time Lord (Experienced) Traits to me before I allow them to take them. These are two of the more...interesting Traits in the game, in that respect. Just my $0.02, of course. |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Feb 25, 2010 17:52:41 GMT
That raises the question fo whether higher Skills compensate for Story Points. Since the number of Story Points is the maximum between adventures, and a character can have any number of Story Points during play, I'm not sure the Skills do compensate in this fashion. But to raise his Story Points up to the levels of other characters, the Experienced character will have to sacrifice a lot or come up with really awesome ideas every single session. All of those sacrifices are compensation for superior ability. The GM can thus make more use of Experienced characters to forward his plot, because the player will want those Story Points! |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 26, 2010 16:00:59 GMT
Hullo, Stormcrow, That raises the question fo whether higher Skills compensate for Story Points. Since the number of Story Points is the maximum between adventures, and a character can have any number of Story Points during play, I'm not sure the Skills do compensate in this fashion. But to raise his Story Points up to the levels of other characters, the Experienced character will have to sacrifice a lot or come up with really awesome ideas every single session. All of those sacrifices are compensation for superior ability. I don't believe that they are compensation, simply because Story Points are used for so many other things than just Skill bonuses and the like. The GM can thus make more use of Experienced characters to forward his plot, because the player will want those Story Points! This much I will certainly agree with. |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Feb 27, 2010 4:57:05 GMT
But to raise his Story Points up to the levels of other characters, the Experienced character will have to sacrifice a lot or come up with really awesome ideas every single session. All of those sacrifices are compensation for superior ability. I don't believe that they are compensation, simply because Story Points are used for so many other things than just Skill bonuses and the like. Hmm? That's exactly my point. Story Points are so vital to success in the game, that starting out with fewer of them is a serious handicap. To gain enough Story Points to equal his fellow players, the player must either become a tool for the GM's plot development, or be a serious liability to the party. And because Story Points are so important to the game, you can't really play well without spending them a lot. Try going face-to-eye-stalk against a Dalek without Story Points in your arsenal. |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 27, 2010 15:55:24 GMT
Hullo, Stormcrow, Hmm? That's exactly my point. Story Points are so vital to success in the game, that starting out with fewer of them is a serious handicap. To gain enough Story Points to equal his fellow players, the player must either become a tool for the GM's plot development, or be a serious liability to the party. So? The whole point is that when taking Experienced or Time Lord or a Gadget that will reduce Story Points, one has to evaluate the risk that one takes in doing so. Sure, it's a handicap, but players have to live with...oh, right, most players don't tend to handicap their characters, do they? And because Story Points are so important to the game, you can't really play well without spending them a lot. Try going face-to-eye-stalk against a Dalek without Story Points in your arsenal. Insofar as that's concerned, sane players and their characters *don't* go face-to-eye-stalk with Daleks. That's just plain suicidal, regardless of the number of Story Points one has.  |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Feb 27, 2010 18:03:31 GMT
So? The whole point is that when taking Experienced or Time Lord or a Gadget that will reduce Story Points, one has to evaluate the risk that one takes in doing so. Sure, it's a handicap, but players have to live with...oh, right, most players don't tend to handicap their characters, do they? They may if they get to be more skilled or capable as a result! It's a question of balance: do you want accomplish things because of your competence (character and skill points) or because of luck (story points)? Captain Jack (4 story points) gets far fewer lucky breaks than Rose (15 story points) because he's much more capable than she is. For every instance where Jack succeeds by superior skills rolls or just coming back to life, Rose spends story points to succeed. Actually, Jack is an excellent example of this. How many times have we seen Jack killed? Now how many times have we seen Rose killed? Jack keeps going because he sacrificed story points to be Immortal; Rose keeps going because she spends those same story points to avoid being killed in the first place. It's a balance. And because Story Points are so important to the game, you can't really play well without spending them a lot. Try going face-to-eye-stalk against a Dalek without Story Points in your arsenal. Insofar as that's concerned, sane players and their characters *don't* go face-to-eye-stalk with Daleks. That's just plain suicidal, regardless of the number of Story Points one has. [/quote] Nonsense! How many times have we seen the Doctor and his companions through the eye of a Dalek, shrinking in fear as the Dalek screams for their extermination? Nearly every time we see Daleks. The characters don't try to do this; it's just the way things end up. What kind of Doctor Who adventure would it be if a Dalek never shouted "Exterminate!" at you? In this game, it's completely justified and expected that the GM put the characters in hopeless, no-win situations. They have a weapon with which to fight back: story points. As long as you've got story points left, your character won't die/will escape/won't give up. |
|
|
|
Post by kaemaril on Feb 27, 2010 18:11:33 GMT
What kind of Doctor Who adventure would it be if a Dalek never shouted "Exterminate!" at you? One which didn't feature Daleks? |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Feb 28, 2010 1:09:42 GMT
What kind of Doctor Who adventure would it be if a Dalek never shouted "Exterminate!" at you? One which didn't feature Daleks? It's a lie!! Silurians are just Daleks in disguise! So are the Cybermen! Even K-9 is just a Dalek in a really small casing! |
|
|
|
Post by kaemaril on Feb 28, 2010 5:27:45 GMT
One which didn't feature Daleks? It's a lie!! Silurians are just Daleks in disguise! So are the Cybermen! Even K-9 is just a Dalek in a really small casing! Are you suggesting K-9 is a villain?!?  |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Feb 28, 2010 14:14:59 GMT
It's a lie!! Silurians are just Daleks in disguise! So are the Cybermen! Even K-9 is just a Dalek in a really small casing! Are you suggesting K-9 is a villain?!? Ha! I see he's fooled you all this time. "Exterminate... Master!" |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 28, 2010 15:24:55 GMT
Hullo, Stormcrow, So? The whole point is that when taking Experienced or Time Lord or a Gadget that will reduce Story Points, one has to evaluate the risk that one takes in doing so. Sure, it's a handicap, but players have to live with...oh, right, most players don't tend to handicap their characters, do they? They may if they get to be more skilled or capable as a result! It's a question of balance: do you want accomplish things because of your competence (character and skill points) or because of luck (story points)? Captain Jack (4 story points) gets far fewer lucky breaks than Rose (15 story points) because he's much more capable than she is. For every instance where Jack succeeds by superior skills rolls or just coming back to life, Rose spends story points to succeed. My problem here is terminology. You refer to the use of Story Points as luck, but they're not luck. That's a separate Trait on its own. Story Points are used to manipulate the "reality" of the game, As for the Rose vs. Jack comparison, the difference is one of experience. It comes down to what essentially is one of game balance. You can't create Jack Harkness using the rules per se, but Rose can be done since she's a starting character. Like comparing apples and oranges. While character balance does exist in the game to some extent, any charactere who takes Time Lord or Immortal is definitely not balanced very well against someone along the lines of a character like Rose, Sarah Jane Smith, or even a Leela. Actually, Jack is an excellent example of this. How many times have we seen Jack killed? Now how many times have we seen Rose killed? Jack keeps going because he sacrificed story points to be Immortal; Rose keeps going because she spends those same story points to avoid being killed in the first place. It's a balance. That's certainly one way to look at it. But it's not luck that has made Jack immortal, and I doubt he would tell you that he feels lucky to be alive every time he comes back. Rose is just...Rose. |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 28, 2010 15:25:39 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, What kind of Doctor Who adventure would it be if a Dalek never shouted "Exterminate!" at you? One which didn't feature Daleks? LOL!! |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Feb 28, 2010 15:36:17 GMT
Hullo, Kaemaril, It's a lie!! Silurians are just Daleks in disguise! So are the Cybermen! Even K-9 is just a Dalek in a really small casing! Are you suggesting K-9 is a villain?!? Of course K-9 is a villain...the most heinous villain of all! Tom Baker's Doctor had Dependency (K-9) as one of his Traits after "The Invisible Enemy". A story that was heinous in and of its own right! <evil g> |
|
|
|
Post by kaemaril on Feb 28, 2010 18:56:49 GMT
Are you suggesting K-9 is a villain?!? Ha! I see he's fooled you all this time. "Exterminate... Master!" Considering he's been completely rebuilt by the Doctor himself on no less than three occasions, I'd have to say those are some pretty awesome fooling skills |
|
|
|
Post by kaemaril on Feb 28, 2010 19:08:12 GMT
My problem here is terminology. You refer to the use of Story Points as luck, but they're not luck. That's a separate Trait on its own. Story Points are used to manipulate the "reality" of the game Not by the player characters they're not. The expenditure of story points by the players can be readily attributed to fate, good fortune, etc by the characters. As such 'luck' could be an appropriate explanation (one of many) for the actual effect of the expenditure. PCs not being shot may be readily attributable to 'Good luck' or 'a fluke' etc without the character having to possess the Lucky trait. It could still be described that way, for that matter, even if they possess the 'Unlucky' trait ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Stormcrow on Feb 28, 2010 21:37:39 GMT
My problem here is terminology. You refer to the use of Story Points as luck, but they're not luck. That's a separate Trait on its own. Story Points are used to manipulate the "reality" of the game Not by the player characters they're not. The expenditure of story points by the players can be readily attributed to fate, good fortune, etc by the characters. As such 'luck' could be an appropriate explanation (one of many) for the actual effect of the expenditure. PCs not being shot may be readily attributable to 'Good luck' or 'a fluke' etc without the character having to possess the Lucky trait. It could still be described that way, for that matter, even if they possess the 'Unlucky' trait ;D Yes, that's exactly what I meant. |
|
skagra
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 59 
|
Post by skagra on Mar 3, 2010 2:19:45 GMT
Experienced/inexperienced is a brilliant mechanic, if you ask me. Some characters simply aren't as skilled or talented as others. This is good and makes for a diverse party. But it's not really fair to the player who want to play Susan Foreman. This system rewards her with story points to ensure that player has an important role and contributes as much to the adventure as Captain Jack. My problem here is terminology. You refer to the use of Story Points as luck, but they're not luck. That's a separate Trait on its own. Story Points are used to manipulate the "reality" of the game Not by the player characters they're not. The expenditure of story points by the players can be readily attributed to fate, good fortune, etc by the characters. As such 'luck' could be an appropriate explanation (one of many) for the actual effect of the expenditure. PCs not being shot may be readily attributable to 'Good luck' or 'a fluke' etc without the character having to possess the Lucky trait. It could still be described that way, for that matter, even if they possess the 'Unlucky' trait ;D I think Story Points are very well named. There is a difference between fate and luck. Luck is when something happens by chance, whereas fate is when something happens because it was meant to happen - as if by design. In this way, fate is the opposite of luck - it prevents random chance from interrupting the "divine plan". The notion of fate in the real world is dubious at best, but fiction is another matter. Stories have authors who engineer events with a plan. Nothing happens in a story that isn't meant to happen. (People who believe in fate probably see their lives as akin to a novel). For example, If Genny had fumbled into a deadly laser when flip flopping, that wouldn't have made for a very good story. If Rose had slipped off her swinging rope - missing the Auton and falling to her death instead of saving the Doctor, that would have been a poor story. Those disasters simply weren't meant to happen. When a player uses a Story Point to prevent fair and random chance from derailing the plot, they are stepping out of character and acting as the author - preventing the occurrence of anything not meant to happen, or ensuring the occurrence of anything that is meant to happen. So I think story points are better seen as fate than as luck (though to the character they'd be indistinguishable). |
|
|
|
Post by JohnK on Mar 3, 2010 13:43:20 GMT
Hullo, skagra, Experienced/inexperienced is a brilliant mechanic, if you ask me. Some characters simply aren't as skilled or talented as others. This is good and makes for a diverse party. But it's not really fair to the player who want to play Susan Foreman. This system rewards her with story points to ensure that player has an important role and contributes as much to the adventure as Captain Jack. Yes, the Experienced and Inexperienced Traits are definitely a superb mechanic. However, insofar as the reference to Susan Foreman, Susan (being a character from the tv series) should not be statted up according to the game rules, she should be statted up according to what has been seen and all in the tv series. See my write-up for Susan here: dwaitas.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=characters&action=display&thread=388 |
|
