Rassilon
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Grand Administrator
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Post by Rassilon on Dec 26, 2009 13:52:04 GMT
A conversation with some friends sparked a rather interesting consideration about writing up the Doctors 1 & 2, which will have an influence on how these early Doctors are portrayed in game terms.
The 1st and 2nd Doctors are renegades, on the run from the Time Lords.
The Time Lord 'Reflex Link' -The telepathic link they share with the rest of their race - has been broken off to avoid detection.
The Doctor was at this time technically a Criminal who had stolen a TARDIS and also broken the laws of Non Intervention.
Also, these Doctors were remarkable for the fact they found it difficult to pilot the TARDIS with any great accuracy.
How would these facts affect their writeups?
Would the stats and traits for the TARDIS also be different?
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Post by JohnK on Dec 26, 2009 17:54:43 GMT
Hullo, Rassilon, Interesting subject to bring up, given that I've just statted up the First Doctor.  A conversation with some friends sparked a rather interesting consideration about writing up the Doctors 1 & 2, which will have an influence on how these early Doctors are portrayed in game terms. The 1st and 2nd Doctors are renegades, on the run from the Time Lords. Yep, I had nearly forgotten that one. Thanks for the reminder on that. I've set up a new Trait, Renegade, to account for this and have added it to the write-up. It also incorporates the first Doctor's anti-authority elements. The Time Lord 'Reflex Link' -The telepathic link they share with the rest of their race - has been broken off to avoid detection. That was something that I had wondered about. I figured that the Psychic Trait covered this, at least for Time Lords, or is that going to be a new one that gets added with the pre-req? Either way, I didn't give the first Doctor the Psychic Trait. The Doctor was at this time technically a Criminal who had stolen a TARDIS and also broken the laws of Non Intervention. Yep, that was something I finally remembered watching "The Daleks" last night. Have added that to the write-up as well, so am happy with this. New Trait time again; surprised that Criminal isn't a Bad Trait in the book already. Also, these Doctors were remarkable for the fact they found it difficult to pilot the TARDIS with any great accuracy. That was something that, to be honest, I didn't know how to deal with. The first Doctor still needs the Vortex Trait, but the way I've decided to handle it is that he doesn't get the +2 bonus when using the TARDIS. I'm not sure that's enough of a "penalty" for this purpose, though, if one can call it a penalty. How would these facts affect their writeups? Would the stats and traits for the TARDIS also be different? In both cases, they would affect the write-ups somewhat. The TARDIS stats would definitely have to reflect the "younger" version of the ship for sure. |
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Post by xelkelvos on Dec 28, 2009 0:52:54 GMT
I would say something like Criminal and Renegade may well be lumped into Adversary and/or Outcast for write-up purposes.
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Post by JohnK on Dec 28, 2009 2:32:02 GMT
Hullo, Xelkelvos, I would say something like Criminal and Renegade may well be lumped into Adversary and/or Outcast for write-up purposes. Umm, no. Adversary refers to an enemy that you have. Criminal means you are a criminal. The Renegade is not the same as being an exile, which i considered in the original write-up I did of the first Doctor, but Renegade gives a bit better "definition" to the character's nature, than just being an exile. Just my $0.02. We'll see what the real stats for the first Doctor from C7 look like at some point, I hope. |
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Post by ravencrowking on Dec 29, 2009 3:01:28 GMT
That was something that I had wondered about. I figured that the Psychic Trait covered this, at least for Time Lords, or is that going to be a new one that gets added with the pre-req? Either way, I didn't give the first Doctor the Psychic Trait. In The Sensorites, the 1st Doctor tells Ian and Barbara that he is telepathic and can sometimes tell what they are thinking. |
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Post by JohnK on Dec 29, 2009 4:32:04 GMT
Hullo, Ravencrowking, That was something that I had wondered about. I figured that the Psychic Trait covered this, at least for Time Lords, or is that going to be a new one that gets added with the pre-req? Either way, I didn't give the first Doctor the Psychic Trait. In The Sensorites, the 1st Doctor tells Ian and Barbara that he is telepathic and can sometimes tell what they are thinking. Damn, do you know how long it's been since I actually saw "The Sensorites"??!! Maybe 25 years or so... So, are you saying that my Hartnell Doctor write-up should have the Psychic and Telepathic Traits added to them? |
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Post by thebrokenone on Dec 30, 2009 19:14:57 GMT
Maybe add both but with the descriptor of unreliable so that it dosent become used to much as a way to get out of actually playing interactions through during the game.
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Post by JohnK on Dec 31, 2009 0:08:56 GMT
Hullo, thebrokenone, Maybe add both but with the descriptor of unreliable so that it dosent become used to much as a way to get out of actually playing interactions through during the game. That's a good idea. Consider it done. |
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Post by mhopcroft on Jan 11, 2010 23:27:57 GMT
I'm thinking of taking on the task of writing up the Second Doctor (Patrick Troughton). One thing that surprises me when I look over some of the old episodes is how manipulative the Doctor could be. He would do things like tell Jamie not to do some specific thing under any circumstances knowing full well that it would goad the Scot into doing it anyway. He was deeply attracted to comedic looking statements, but he was also deeply devious with numerous layers of deceit in his personality (largely because he was still on the run and didn't want to leave as many traceable activities behind).
I suspect that while he may have been on the run from the Time Lords, they were watching him the entire time and were simply giving him a long leash until he finally wound up in a situation he couldn't handle himself -- and then extracting their pound of flesh before sending him on his way again.
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Post by sariel2005 on Jan 12, 2010 2:37:35 GMT
An interesting thing to note with the first and second Doctors
is at various times they are examined while unconcious and
only have one heart. The first Doctor by Ian and the Second
notably while unconcious in Wheel in Space. Neither could control
the TARDIS very well. The Third Doctor of course shows no surprise at having two hearts and it is discussed as the norm with the Master in his tenure.
Some spin off novels go further and imply the second heart is in
some way linked to Gallifrey and the Eye of Harmony. A possible theory is when the First Doctor fled Gallifrey he removed his second heart and his link to Gallifrey and it was restored when he was captured by the Time lords in The Wargames.
It is interesting to note that in The Two Doctors, the Second Doctor is on a mission for the Timelords ( and Jamie is aware of who they are.) and seems perfectly able to control his TARDIS. It is possible that they restore his second heart and his link to Gallirey ( in all his subsequent wanderings the Timelords have no problem in locating him whenever they wish).
Further in the Two Doctors the second Doctor talks of the Rassilon imprimature as being needed to control a timecraft but later says he is lying ( more manipulation ) to fool the sontarans. I think it is possible that the imprimature is not a genetic code but actually the second heart itself.
I would suggest that the first two Doctors have the Timelord trait but as a bad trait have "one heart" or "link severed" which counteracts the vortex trait or even gives a greater negative modifier.
Note that the Doctor IS still described as ageless, and is able to survive both the time destructor ( Daleks MAsterplan ) and the Ice Warriors Spores (Seeds of Death ) so his other physical abilities are unaffected.
(As an aside on of the spin offs suggests that the Doctor built a manual control console to aid in piloting without detection.)
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Post by Curufea on Jan 12, 2010 3:42:02 GMT
I've also seen it suggested that Time Lords get their second heart after they regenerate for the first time.
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skagra
2nd Incarnation
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Post by skagra on Feb 7, 2010 20:12:43 GMT
Also, these Doctors were remarkable for the fact they found it difficult to pilot the TARDIS with any great accuracy I always thought it was the TARDIS which simply had a lot more wrong with it those days. The first doctor couldn't steer the thing at all - when he dematerialised he had no idea where he'd materialise. This kind of malfunction is a great way to put control in the hands of the GM. I've also seen it suggested that Time Lords get their second heart after they regenerate for the first time. Or at least half human Timelords. |
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Post by n01h3r3 on Feb 8, 2010 0:58:40 GMT
I always thought it was the TARDIS which simply had a lot more wrong with it those days. Personally, I put it down to the Doctor still being fairly young (by Time Lord standards) and inexperienced, using an old museum piece of a TARDIS that wasn't even his to begin with, and being the only one on board who even vaguely knew what he was doing with it. Centuries later, he's still not entirely precise (he does still 'miss' his destinations, ending up in just slightly the wrong time and place), but the TARDIS is much more familiar with him after so long together, and he's tinkered with the console and gotten so used to running around it pushing buttons and moving levels and so forth that he can operate it with a much greater degree of accuracy than he used to. That, and he's been around for so long and seen so much that even if he's completely unaware of where he's landed (which has happened a few times in New Who), it doesn't usually take him long to figure it out. |
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skagra
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 59
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Post by skagra on Feb 8, 2010 15:53:46 GMT
I'm not sure about that. In Keys Of Marinus The doctor talks about fixing the TARDIS. He certainly does a lot of work on it during the run of Classic Who.
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Post by sariel2005 on Feb 11, 2010 22:17:23 GMT
The Second Doctor cannot pilot the TARDIS with any accuracy at all in his very last story, in fact this is the reason he has to call the Timelords in to get all the kidnapped soldiers home.
The Third Doctor has his knowledge of dematerialisation codes
removed during his exile, when his exile is lifted the Doctor is
able to pilot the TARDIS with reasonable accuracy. its not a progression of ability, at one point he cannot do it, the next he
can.
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Post by spanglemaker on Feb 12, 2010 14:44:15 GMT
I just wanted to add something to the mix.
I thought that the TARDIS was meant to be operated by 6 Timelords.
The Doctor was not the brightest student of the Academy, still by human standards he’s a genius.
Through practical experience he becomes one of the best with Temporal Engineering.
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Post by JohnK on Feb 12, 2010 16:04:25 GMT
Hullo, sariel, Welcome to the DW: AiTaS rpg forums. Always good to see new faces around here. The Second Doctor cannot pilot the TARDIS with any accuracy at all in his very last story, in fact this is the reason he has to call the Timelords in to get all the kidnapped soldiers home. Incorrect. He does not call in the Time Lords because he can't control his TARDIS to send the various soldiers and people back to their proper times, he calls them in because the job is too big for him to handle on his own. That was made very clear in "The War Games". The Third Doctor has his knowledge of dematerialisation codes removed during his exile, when his exile is lifted the Doctor is able to pilot the TARDIS with reasonable accuracy. its not a progression of ability, at one point he cannot do it, the next he can. That is not a fair assessment either. When it comes right down to it, the Hartnell and Troughton Doctors were relatively inexperienced at controlling their TARDISes due to lack of experience. The Pertwee Doctor's ability to pilot the TARDIS more efficiently was more a function of his experience and a progression of his ability more than anything else. Imo, of course. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Feb 12, 2010 17:54:47 GMT
I thought that the TARDIS was meant to be operated by 6 Timelords. This is a statement made during the new show, not the old one. If you liken the piloting of a time ship through the eddies and currents of the Vortex to the sailing of an ocean-going ship, then it could make sense: you need a helmsman, people on different lines and sails, a bosun, and so on. On the other hand, it's quite clear that the six-paneled console also houses a lot of non-piloting functions. The Doctor may not fly it accurately, but most of the time in the classic show it wasn't a rough ride. Romana was quite good at smooth solo landings. The nature of the Vortex has changed a lot over the show's history (and not just the way it looks at the beginning of the show). Consider also the purpose of the Time Lord capsules. They're meant for traveling incognito, for scientific and historical research, not for adventuring. You don't bring a large crew for that, but you do bring a lot of instruments. I generally wouldn't overplay the rough-ride experience of an "undermanned" time ship. It certainly won't be as reliable and pleasant a ride as one piloted by a normal complement of Time Lords, but it probably wouldn't be the roller-coaster ride shown in the new show. |
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Post by spanglemaker on Feb 13, 2010 14:27:17 GMT
Thats pretty true, I never really looked to deeply into TARDIS operation. I do remember Romana being pretty good at solo landings.
Tom Baker had the odd rough ride, if I remember correctly.
If you are bringing a group to explore different areas of time and space, would probably involve a couple of experienced Timelords and several students. The Gallifreyan School Field Trip.
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Post by JohnK on Feb 13, 2010 15:32:56 GMT
Hullo, spanglemaker, Welcome to the DW: AiTaS rpg forums! Always good to see new people popping in here, and coming to enjoy the new rpg. You'll find the folks around here a friendly and kind-hearted bunch, always willing to discuss stuff about the game and the universe of Doctor Who. Great to have you here! I just wanted to add something to the mix. I thought that the TARDIS was meant to be operated by 6 Timelords. Personally, I've always found this debateable. While it may have been mentioned in a variety of different places, it's not something that's discussed in the series itself, and I don't necessarily take anything from the RTD period as total canon. But that's another subject in and of itself. Besides, just think... if this is true, that means every authorised Time Lord trip off-world would mean that TARDISes would have to have six Time Lords travelling with it. That's a lot of Time Lords. The Doctor was not the brightest student of the Academy, still by human standards he’s a genius. Perhaps not, but to be honest, his experiences out in the universe at large are worth more than any education in a Gallifreyan classroom could have given him. Why do you think Romana didn't want to go home? Through practical experience he becomes one of the best with Temporal Engineering. I'm not sure I'd agree with that argument, at least in the first four incarnations. Temporal engineering is not the Doctor's real strength. Just my $0.02, of course. Ymmv. |
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Post by sariel2005 on Feb 13, 2010 18:56:04 GMT
Thanks for the welcome JohnK looking at your replies, I haven't seen the Wargames for some considerable time but I believe that the Doctor cannot deal with the job himself precisely because he cannot control the TARDIS. (Remember the TARDIS interior dimension is potentially infinite so he has no lack of space). In fact the Doctor only sucessfully pilots the TARDIS once prior to his exile ( in unusual circumstances). The Third Doctor imediately his exile is lifted goes on a quick spin with Jo, with no worry that he can get her back home. He has indeed accomplished this by the Green Death ( a story in which he takes a side trip to Metebilis III). He seems to have gone from no ability to full ability with no intervening oportunity to gain more practice. ( of course there is always season 6B  BTW isn't it implied that the Doctor IS a genius in Gallifreyan terms but he deliberately did badly in his exams? ( I know that was definitely stated in the expanded universe.) |
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cib
1st Incarnation
Posts: 6
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Post by cib on Feb 14, 2010 14:44:32 GMT
The Doctor is (was?) a member of the Prydonion Chapter- whom are known. for their cunning. Due in part to the chapter being founded by Rassilon and that more Prydonions have been Lord President of Gallifrey than any other chapter, they are considered to be the elite of Timelord society. Therefore, as a Prydonion the Doctor (and indeed, the Master as he's Prydonion to) before leaving Gallifrey had been both being acknowledged as a cut above the rest of Gallifreyan society.
This is pretty much all from the Deadly Assassin.
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Post by JohnK on Feb 14, 2010 15:36:59 GMT
Hullo, sariel, Thanks for the welcome JohnK You're welcome. looking at your replies, I haven't seen the Wargames for some considerable time but I believe that the Doctor cannot deal with the job himself precisely because he cannot control the TARDIS. (Remember the TARDIS interior dimension is potentially infinite so he has no lack of space). In fact the Doctor only sucessfully pilots the TARDIS once prior to his exile ( in unusual circumstances). Nope, it's got nothing to do with this... it's got to do with the sheer number of personnel to be transported back to their appropriate times, the number of time periods involved, and the fact that he's only got one TARDIS. Not to mention shutting down the time zones, and all. That's always been my take on it, and there's nothing in the series episodes to disagree with that unless someone else wants to chime in. |
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Post by thetasigma on Feb 24, 2010 20:32:02 GMT
Is there a chance the reason he hasn't either the hearts or the ability to control the tardis correctly that he's used the chameleon arch. In the tribes of glum he did have a written manual for the tardis that he left behind by accident.
The single heart is explained and the fact he can't connect well with the tardis as he is hiding by being somewhat human. It doesn't work if he's used the full function of the arch as this would also over write the mind.
This would also explain why he's not gone back for Susan if she had the regenerative ability of a time lord she would be trapped on earth. As a arch subject Susan has a normal human life and dies with her husband.
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Post by azimerthemad on May 9, 2010 6:09:33 GMT
I'm not sure I'd agree with that argument, at least in the first four incarnations. Temporal engineering is not the Doctor's real strength. True; It's not the Miracle Worker Mr. Scott engineering talent, it was the ability my friend Josh had to fix his cruddy used Renault in any way with duct tape. He knows how to keep her running...mostly. |
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gmjake
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 47
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Post by gmjake on Jun 19, 2010 2:07:30 GMT
chameleon arch...
hmmm...
Maybe, that's a good point.
Although in the edge of destruction ian says the doctor has one heart after the doctor is unconcious, and in the newer series his heart occasionally fails. Perhaps one of his hearts failed but the other one was fine.
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