Rassilon
Administrator
Grand Administrator
Posts: 751 
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Post by Rassilon on Dec 21, 2014 15:13:17 GMT
What Did You Think?
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Post by ninjaconor on Dec 25, 2014 20:36:46 GMT
It was alright. I think the whole dream-within-a-dream gimmick might have impressed me more if South Park hadn't done it much better just a few weeks ago in "Grounded Vindaloop". I still enjoyed the episode and was fairly gripped throughout. I thought the bit with old Clara was a little cheesy but it did manage to hit that emotional spot and I was really getting ready to praise the ending, and then they ruined it by making all of that be a dream. Apparently it's because Jenna Coleman was set to leave after this episode but changed her mind at the last minute.
I've actually been a big fan of Jenna Coleman in the show and really enjoyed Clara as a companion but her story was wrapped up perfectly last series. I think this is the point where she's outstayed her welcome. If she was a visitor in my house I'd be on my feet, trying to politely wrap up the conversation and nodding to the door while clearing my throat.
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Post by olegrand on Dec 25, 2014 22:19:20 GMT
I was really pleasantly surprised. It was easily the best Xmas special of the Moffat-era so far... and perhaps the best episode with the 12th Doctor so far too (don't get me wrong : I love Peter Capaldi as the 12th Doctor, but so far I really felt his character had been somewhat "underused" by the scripts). Even the Clara-Danny stuff which tended to annoy me during the regular run was handled in a very adept manner - serving the story rather than diluting it... It avoided all the pitfalls of "dream episodes" and the whole Father Christmas thing was very cleverly integrated. Happy Xmas !  |
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
It's complicated....
Posts: 3,753
Favourite Doctors: Thirteen, Six, Five, Two, Eight, Eleven, Twelve, One, Nine...
Traits: Eccentric, Insatiable Curiousity.
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Post by Catsmate on Dec 25, 2014 22:53:56 GMT
Well that was better than I expected. Though perhaps my expectations weren't that high given prior xmas specials. OK the multi-layered dream was a little annoying but otherwise a reasonable plot, good acting, reasonable characters and a general lack of irritating stupidity. I was reminded of " Who Goes There?" ( text) by the general theme and setting, anyone else get that vibe? |
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thereviewer
3rd Incarnation
Posts: 278
Favourite Doctors: Jodie Whittaker, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, David Tennant, Christopher Eccelston, John Hurt, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Peter Davison, Tom Baker, William Hartnell
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Post by thereviewer on Dec 26, 2014 4:53:17 GMT
Okay, probably the last to get this in before Christmas is over officially, so here we go. (*deep breath*) (no pun intended.)
I. LOVED. THIS. EPISODE.
As Castmate pointed out, this seemed to infuse a lot of sci-fi and fantasy stories from Santa, to Inception, to Total Recall (the tangerine at the end,) and of course, Alien (I loved the in-joke reference. Anyone who's read IDW Comic's Doctor Who Finale "The Girl Who Loved Doctor Who" knows that all the real-life actors exist inside the Whoniverse as well so yes, the John Hurt exists in Doctor Who as himself question is answered. He does exist in there so Alien was made.
Loved Clara's performance. I was worried they had stuck with the original ending of her growing old, but I knew she wasn't ready to leave just yet. Series 9 might be her last series, but they at least gave a good enough reason to hold on and not *aheam* "Let It Go" just yet. (HA! Nailed the meme! Sorry, I had to do it cause it's Christmas.) Plus, Santa Frost was as awesome as I thought he was going to be and then some. Like last year, Steven Moffatt proved that Christmas is the time when miracles can happen even when things look their darkest. Great episode, bring on Series 9 and bring on the revelation of Capaldi's appearance!!!
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 26, 2014 5:12:23 GMT
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thereviewer
3rd Incarnation
Posts: 278
Favourite Doctors: Jodie Whittaker, Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, David Tennant, Christopher Eccelston, John Hurt, Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, Peter Davison, Tom Baker, William Hartnell
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Post by thereviewer on Dec 26, 2014 5:23:55 GMT
....%^*# ON A @#$%&* AND SHOVE IT UP A CHISTMAS STORY 2'S @#%&$ WITH A @#%^@!ING @$*# WITH MY DELOREAN @%^&* BILL AND TED #@!^ UP NICHOLAS CAGE'S BUTTHOLE!!!
Sorry. Forgot some people have different time-zones. Though to be fair, this IS the Spoilers Section, though I do apologize on behalf of me forgetting about that detail. 
Can I be forgiven? Please? 
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Post by Escher on Dec 26, 2014 12:29:58 GMT
How is this a spoiler? regarding Capaldi's appearance? |
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus 
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,246
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Dec 26, 2014 12:43:46 GMT
I was wondering the same.
Anyway, I really enjoyed this episode. It was certainly one of the better Christmas specials and one of the strongest of Capaldi's episodes to date. My fears about the inclusion of Santa were allayed and his inclusion made perfect sense.
Should Clara have left at the end? I'm certainly glad she stayed and I would have hated it if the version of her in her 80s turned out to be true.
My only regret is that they didn't date the dream realities to much earlier, so that episodes like Kill the Moon and In the Forest of the Night could have been explained away. Though I guess that would also have negated the emotional impact of Danny's death and would have made Missy a dream too - neither of which I would want.
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Post by Escher on Dec 26, 2014 18:07:51 GMT
+1 to all of the above Misterharry, plus I'll say that Capaldi's Doctor has finally 'clicked' with me and that episode was my 'Fish Custard' moment.
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 26, 2014 19:31:47 GMT
I was impressed with this one. The story made sense, the "it was all a dream" wasn't a cheat, and Clara wasn't annoying. Santa and the elves were funny. I really liked the moment at the end when the Doctor asked Clara to join him. (Although I was really wishing Old Clara was real and her character would finally be gone. Sigh.)
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Post by Eryx on Dec 27, 2014 0:48:42 GMT
I wasn't overly impressed. The dream sequence elements were nice but the whole Santa thing just got on my wick. There is already two much of a fairy tale feel in Doctor Who these days and not enough classic feel.
I'm also fed up of Christmas episodes that are actually Christmas based. It just doesn't feel right for the show. I'd much rather have the Christmas story be something bigger and more impressive than normal.
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bjmorga
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 61
Favourite Doctors: 3, 4, 7, 9, 12
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Post by bjmorga on Dec 27, 2014 1:48:03 GMT
I liked this episode. It was solid and entertaining despite the fact that the conventions of the episode were fairly one dimensional. My wife absolutely hated the episode. She's been pretty bummed about the season as a whole. We both like Capaldi, but feel the writing hasn't been as sharp or matched his particular talents. I had hoped that Clara would be gone. I feel as if her story has been completed.
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Post by cigarman on Dec 27, 2014 14:08:29 GMT
Better than last year's Christmas Special, which really isn't saying much.  I did like Nick Frost as Santa, and Clara was as pretty as ever. Does Clara ever go to bed without full makeup and perfect hair?  |
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Post by da professor on Dec 28, 2014 8:33:44 GMT
I'm also fed up of Christmas episodes that are actually Christmas based. I kind of thought being Christmas based was the whole point of a Christmas episode of any show. |
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DEN
2nd Incarnation
I'll explain later...
Posts: 81
Favourite Doctors: 4th, 10th, Rowan Atkinson
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Post by DEN on Dec 28, 2014 12:05:16 GMT
The difference is being a story that takes place at Christmas time versus a Christmas story.
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sutekh
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 64
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Post by sutekh on Dec 28, 2014 13:10:48 GMT
+1 to all of the above Misterharry, plus I'll say that Capaldi's Doctor has finally 'clicked' with me and that episode was my 'Fish Custard' moment. I think this episode finally got the balance right for Capaldi's Doctor. He's still brusque and abrasive, but there was a greater sense of his better qualities. Also, the sheer childlike glee at the end as Clara runs away with him was infectious. For the first time in a while, we got a hint that there is still a core of innocence at the heart of the Doctor. It helps that he gained some clarity regarding his moral stance and admitted to himself that lies and manipulation will lead to regrets. If they build on this next season, they may achieve a stronger character arc with Capaldi than we've seen with any of the recent doctors. It's strength is its simplicity - we are seeing the Doctor's relationship with Clara slowly 'humanise' him in exactly the same way that the First Doctor's relationship with Ian and Barbara slowly turned him from a selfish and slightly paranoid outsider into the heroic figure we admire. I wonder if this is a coincidence given that Capaldi's Doctor marks the start of a new regeneration cycle? Are we seeing a similar dynamic at play? Moffat has hinted several times that the Doctor NEEDS a human companion to keep him grounded and to remind him that his choices affect real lives. |
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Post by Escher on Dec 28, 2014 14:20:44 GMT
If they build on this next season, they may achieve a stronger character arc with Capaldi than we've seen with any of the recent doctors. It's strength is its simplicity - we are seeing the Doctor's relationship with Clara slowly 'humanise' him in exactly the same way that the First Doctor's relationship with Ian and Barbara slowly turned him from a selfish and slightly paranoid outsider into the heroic figure we admire. I wonder if this is a coincidence given that Capaldi's Doctor marks the start of a new regeneration cycle? Are we seeing a similar dynamic at play? Moffat has hinted several times that the Doctor NEEDS a human companion to keep him grounded and to remind him that his choices affect real lives. Great points. I'd run with this. |
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sutekh
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 64
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Post by sutekh on Dec 29, 2014 1:36:14 GMT
My main concern is that the production team won't be able to resist the temptation to overcomplicate things - the title of the first episode of the next season is the Magician's Apprentice, which seems to imply that the Doctor will take on Clara in an apprentice-like role. Assuming that this is what the title refers to, the best way that this can work is if it is an act of hubris on the Doctor's part. I suspect that he will be a bit flattered to have a companion who imitates him so closely. Maybe Clara will have a few early successes as the Doctor-in-training, but will then make a serious mistake because she lacks the Doctor's wisdom and insight. This could make a compelling story if done right. However, it needs to drive the ongoing character development of Capaldi's Doctor. At the moment, one of his most serious flaws is intellectual arrogance - having a companion make a mistake with tragic consequences while imitating his own manipulative behaviour might teach him a valuable lesson in humility.
I hope that we are seeing a move towards character-driven season arcs. The strongest parts of the season that just finished were the sections that focused on the emotional lives of the characters. The romance between Clara and Danny Pink worked well and gave a sense of depth to the evil of the Cybermen. The two-part finale was overcrowded, but the bits that focused on the relationship between the Doctor and Clara worked well and showed how their relationship is evolving.
My concern is that Moffat's greatest strength is also his greatest weakness - he can develop very intricate plots that take a long time to pay off. This is great when it works, but when he rushes things (as he was forced to do when wrapping up the twelth Doctor's story on Trenzalore due to Matt Smith's abrupt deciusion to leave the role), the result can be either incoherent or too complex for casual viewers. I'd love to see him slow things down a bit and take some time to explore the characters a bit more. With the 50th anniversary special, we moved past the era where the Doctor was the sole guilt-ridden survivor of the Time War into something new - the Doctor needs to discover what he stands for again. He defining personality traits can't just be rudeness and arrogance if the audience is to identify with him as a sympathetic figure - every so often he needs to let some heroic qualities shine through. The line in the Christmas special where he says that "there are some trhings we should never be OK with" hits the right note - it's exactly the same sombre note that Patrick Troughton hit with his celebrated speech "There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things that act against everything we believe in. They must be fought!" Capaldi is a Doctor who could really pull off this angle. But he needs a couple of simple stories that focus on character development rather that complex plots to evolve in this direction - his interpretation of the Doctor desperately needs some space to breathe.
This may be controversial, but I think it's time for a male companion like Ian Chesterton whose quiet moral certainty transformed Hartnell's Doctor from selfish curmudgeon to selfless defender of the oppressed or even Jame McCrimmon who challenged Troughton's Doctor whenever his manipulative streak became too strong. Danny Pink could have fulfilled this role well - his dialogue with the Doctor and Clara in the dream sequence show that he would have been an excellent choice - but sadly he is gone. I think we need a bit of a rest from companions who special snowflakes and focus on somebody whose defining feature is their normality. The core of the show across all of its incarnations focuses on how contact with the Doctor transforms the lives or ordinary people as it exposes them to wonders and terrors. And in its most sublime moments, the show also acknowledges that emotional contact with companions also transforms the Doctor - changing him from someone who focuses on the war between good and evil an abstract cosmic level to a more heroic figure who knows instinctively that every life matters and is willing to sacrifice himself to protect others.
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Post by angelicdoctor on Dec 30, 2014 3:37:49 GMT
Best Christmas special yet.
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 30, 2014 14:12:29 GMT
"This will be the best Christmas special ever!"
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stahlman
3rd Incarnation
Doctor, stop wasting my time, will you?
Posts: 222
Favourite Doctors: second,third,fourth
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Post by stahlman on Dec 30, 2014 18:54:00 GMT
I thought this was alright.
Nick Frost was very good as a Father Christmas leaning toward the Bad Santa school of incarnations.
The dream within a dream concept was ok in Dallas but the pitcher may have been to that well rather too often although I liked the idea of people dreaming up a Clichéd -The Thing-attack on a base scenario.
The dream crabs were a bit 'so so' as a monster.
I agree with many of the above comments about Capaldi's Doctor and would add that angry ,frenetic babbling loony is not going to cut it for me.
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
It's complicated....
Posts: 3,753
Favourite Doctors: Thirteen, Six, Five, Two, Eight, Eleven, Twelve, One, Nine...
Traits: Eccentric, Insatiable Curiousity.
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Post by Catsmate on Dec 30, 2014 20:03:00 GMT
That reminds me, did anyone else see the Dream Crabs and immediately think of Futurama's brainslugs?
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stahlman
3rd Incarnation
Doctor, stop wasting my time, will you?
Posts: 222
Favourite Doctors: second,third,fourth
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Post by stahlman on Jan 1, 2015 8:51:44 GMT
Wel,there you go you see-now those are much better monsters.
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