misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,246
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Jun 19, 2014 9:40:02 GMT
This July sees the publication of Engines of War, a novel starring the War Doctor. Which leads me to ask... where are we going to put any write-ups from that book? An Appendix in one of the 8th Doctor volumes or the 9th Doctor's?
It's possible that there might be other War Doctor stories if this one's popular, but I can't imagine there will ever be enough material for an Expanded Universe book of his own.
Clearly it's not an imminent issue, but one I thought I'd raise while it occurred to me.
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Post by Escher on Jun 19, 2014 10:29:35 GMT
This July sees the publication of Engines of War, a novel starring the War Doctor. Which leads me to ask... where are we going to put any write-ups from that book? An Appendix in one of the 8th Doctor volumes or the 9th Doctor's? It's possible that there might be other War Doctor stories if this one's popular, but I can't imagine there will ever be enough material for an Expanded Universe book of his own. Clearly it's not an imminent issue, but one I thought I'd raise while it occurred to me. Instead of a War Doctor book, why don't we make an unofficial Time War supplement instead, collecting all knowledge we have of it so far? Granted, the total sum knowledge is so far incomplete but there's enough material to provide a lot of starting points for original campaigns. For a start, there's this from the 2005 (?) Doctor Who Annual. 'Meet The Doctor' by Russell T DaviesWhen the Doctor came to Earth – to track down the Nestene Consciousness and its plastic servants, the Autons – he had no intention of finding a human companion. He’d had fellow travellers alongside him before, of course, and most of them human. His favourite species! But that was in the old days, when the universe seemed young and fresh and more inclined to friendly gestures. The universe, since then, had changed. At least for the Doctor. There had been a War, the Great Time War between the Daleks and the Time Lords. There had been two Time Wars before this – the skirmish between the Halldons and the Eternals, and then the brutal slaughter of the Omnicraven Uprising – and on both occasions, the Doctor’s people had stepped in to settle the matter. The Time Lords had a policy of non-interference in the affairs of the universe, but on a higher level, in affairs of the Time Vortex, they assumed discreetly the role of protectors. They were the self-appointed keepers of the peace. Until forced to fight. Now, the story of the Great (and final) Time War is hard to piece together, because so little survived. Certainly, both had been testing each others strength for many, many years. The Daleks had threatened the Time Lord High Council before, by trying to replace its members with Dalek duplicates. And one of the Dalek Puppet Emperors had openly declared his hostility. Though perhaps the Daleks’ wrath was justifiable – they had been provoked! At one point in their history, the Time Lords had actually sent the Doctor back in time, to prevent the creation of the Daleks. An act of genocide! The Time Lords fired the first shot – though in their defence, they took this course of action because they had foreseen a time when the Daleks would overrun all civilized life and become the dominant life-form in the universe. Some tried to find a peaceful solution. While it’s hard to find precise records of these events, it’s said that under the Act of Master Restitution, President Romana opened a peace treaty with the Daleks. Others claim that the Etra Prime Incident began the escalation of events. But whatever the cause – and its almost certain that the full story has yet to be uncovered – the terrible War began. The Time Lords reached back into their own history, to assemble a fleet of Bowships, Black Hole Carriers and N-Forms; the Daleks unleashed the full might of the Deathsmiths of Goth, and launched an awesome fleet into the Vortex, led by the Emperor himself. The War raged, but for most species in the universe, life continued as normal. The War was fought in the Vortex, and beyond that, in the Ultimate Void, beyond the eyes and ears of ordinary creatures. The Lesser Species lived in ignorance. If a planet found its history subtle changing – perhaps distorting and rewriting itself under the pressures of the rupturing Vortex – then its people were part of that change, and perceived nothing to be wrong. Only the Higher Species – those further up the evolutionary ladder – saw what was happening. The Forest of Cheem gazed upon the bloodshed, and wept. The Nestene Consciousness lost all of its planets, and found itself mutating under temporal stress. The Greater Animus perished and its Carsenome Walls fell into dust. And it is said that the Eternals themselves watched, and despaired of this reality, and fled their hallowed halls, never to be seen again… Years passed, as the mighty armies clashed. And then, silence. No one knows exactly what happened in the final battle. And no one knows how it came to end. All that is known is that one man strode from the wreckage, one man walked free from the ruins of Gallifrey and Skaro. The Time Lord called the Doctor. And his hearts were heavy as he boarded his ship once more, and took to the skies, to escape everything he had just seen; everything he had just done… He is alone and thinks, somehow, that he deserves this. And as he wanders on, he decides that no one should stand beside him. He’s got no room, on board his TARDIS. He is a traveller, and needs no other. But then he finds himself in the cellar of a London shop at closing time, and he grabs the hand of an Earthling called Rose Tyler, and looks into her eyes, and all those resolutions go out of the window! The journey goes on, with a human at his side, and who knows where it will end… And far away, across the universe, on the planet Crafe Tec Heydra, one side of a mountain carries carvings and hieroglyphs, crude representations of an invisible War. The artwork shows two races clashing, one metal, one flesh; a fearsome explosion; and a solitary survivor walking from the wreckage. Solitary? Perhaps not. Under this figure, a phrase has been scratched in the stone, which translates as: you are not alone…
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Post by Siskoid on Jun 19, 2014 12:06:29 GMT
Personally, I'd dump all of that in the 9th Doctor Sourcebook. On the one hand, it's a short one that needs bolstering. On the other, the War Doctor is the "true" 9th incarnation. War Doc, Time War etc. all in that volume.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 19, 2014 13:13:17 GMT
And the fact that the so-called War Doctor in the 50th anniversary special was originally going to be Christopher Eccleston, but he refused to play the part, so Moffat had to invent a new incarnation to be in the Time War.
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Post by Siskoid on Jun 19, 2014 13:36:15 GMT
Is this true? Never heard that before, though I suppose it makes sense. The "one who doesn't deserve to call himself the Doctor" is a more interesting idea though.
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Post by Hedgewick on Jun 19, 2014 15:04:18 GMT
Is this true? Never heard that before, though I suppose it makes sense. The "one who doesn't deserve to call himself the Doctor" is a more interesting idea though. We may never know the exact details of the story that Steven Moffat originally had in mind, but the fiftieth anniversary special was intended to feature only the Ninth, Tenth, and Eleventh Doctors, yes. The War Doctor was conceived only after Christopher Eccleston declined to take part in the episode, as Moffat has explained in Doctor Who Magazine.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 19, 2014 17:57:06 GMT
The "one who doesn't deserve to call himself the Doctor" is a more interesting idea though. I was never a fan of it. It's too metaphysical, too self-aware. He's called the Doctor because he has a doctorate and no one knows his name.
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jennysfan
Dominus Tempus
Moved awhile ago, still a mess
Posts: 195
Favourite Doctors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, 9, 10, 11 & 12 in no particular order
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Post by jennysfan on Jun 20, 2014 10:45:22 GMT
I have put some thought into this before. Considering that the War Doctor's entire incarnation takes place during the Time War, it might help if we knew what the Time War was and how it was waged. Did they try to manipulate each other into fixed points and try to pull off extinction events on one another? Of course trying to exterminate a species that spends a good portion outside reality, (the vortex is outside space & time remember), is difficult. Particularly if they can just go to a timezone they weren't in beforehand and rebuild.
War stories for the Time War, (which would include pretty much every War Doctor adventure), are things which we aren't prepared to deal with.
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Post by Siskoid on Jun 20, 2014 10:55:36 GMT
The new War Doctor novel will probably give us a good idea.
The Time Traveller's Companion's section of apocalyptic gadgets can also be used to round out Time Lord strategies.
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Post by Marnal on Jun 21, 2014 16:34:52 GMT
Its worth noting that there's no stories [liscensed or otherwise] that state that the Time War discussed about and glimpsed in the 8th Doctor Novels is not the same Time War discussed and glimpsed in the New TV series.
RTD stated that he'd planned on the Time War being something for the novels and audios to deal with. But shortly afterwards RTD said that the Novel War was a different war. But he also states that BBC Lawyers told him he must say that or he'd open the BBC up to lawsuits.
So if one is truly trying to embrace the expanded universe of Doctor Who then why separate the Time Wars?
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,246
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Jun 21, 2014 16:52:27 GMT
I prefer to believe that the Enemy of the 8th Doctor novels was something less prosaic than the Daleks, though I appreciate that's not a view shared by everyone.
My own preference would be to leave the Expanded Universe Sourcebooks open to interpretation as to whether they are the same Time Wars or different ones, so that GMs can make their own minds up either way. However, if somebody writes a Time War Supplement that expressly makes them the same war, I'd be more than happy to see that.
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Post by Marnal on Jun 23, 2014 18:32:51 GMT
I've been toying with producing an "Extra-Canonical Time Traveler's Companion" (which would cover the Time War in great detail). I'm just not sure when I would find the time. It would certainly be several months before I even had time to think about it.
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jennysfan
Dominus Tempus
Moved awhile ago, still a mess
Posts: 195
Favourite Doctors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, 9, 10, 11 & 12 in no particular order
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Post by jennysfan on Jun 23, 2014 19:21:05 GMT
Given how Time works in-universe, they can both be true. The first interpretation works like this. When you're waging a war over causality, it makes sense that history would be rewritten. If you erase a people from existence but they participated in the lynchpins of reality (or 'fixed points' in modern terminology) then something needs to step in or the universe would collapse under the weight of paradox. This would only be necessary in the big cases of protecting the 'Web of Time', as the universe seems to handle the little paradoxes.
So if the Time Lords 'unmake' the Enemy, then something needs to replace them at fixed points. Despite claims that Gallifrey's history being 'time-locked', they have placed multiple incarnations of the same Time-Lord on it (the 5 Doctors), and that was before they brought back the "god-emperor" of the Time-Lords (Rassilon) after his death in order to fight in said Time War.
Covering this Time War in detail, should be a difficulty because it doesn't make sense from our 3-dimesional thinking. The rules, the enemy, the weaponry, they are all in flux; changing due the unstable of reality.
However, the other interpretation is the one I hinted at earlier in this thread. A cosmic chess using Time and mega-weapons... That said, I do look forward to the Time Lords unleashing the Nightmare Child against the Darleks.
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Post by Siskoid on Jun 23, 2014 20:03:12 GMT
I agree with jennysfan. All the chrono-wars could have happened and unhappened several times. Their very nature means this can "happen".
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jennysfan
Dominus Tempus
Moved awhile ago, still a mess
Posts: 195
Favourite Doctors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, 9, 10, 11 & 12 in no particular order
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Post by jennysfan on Jun 30, 2014 2:00:44 GMT
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koloth
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 52
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Post by koloth on Dec 18, 2014 20:48:21 GMT
I think a War Doctor/Time War companion would be excellent!
The difference with the Time War and the Future War in the novels is that it was played backwards in the Doctors timeline. Alien Bodies sees him with his corpse being used as a weapon. The nexus of this war was the Doctor stopped the mapping of the Eleven Day Parliament on to Gallifrey at the start of the war, destroying Gallifrey ensuring the war never happened.
There are many sources that refer to the many Gallifreys; cloneworlds or alternate universes.
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jennysfan
Dominus Tempus
Moved awhile ago, still a mess
Posts: 195
Favourite Doctors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, 9, 10, 11 & 12 in no particular order
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Post by jennysfan on Dec 19, 2014 2:55:51 GMT
Given the amount of damage that described 'onscreen, and that most additional sources claim that 'time was rewritten' with alternate time-lines/permeations etc., the Time War could be a later version/variant of the Future War.
To be honest, I never felt the Daleks were a big enough threat to cause all that damage,even with the Time Lords acting nuts. But if it was reality/the Web of Time twisting to fit all the destruction, all that pain, all those scars and damage and time spurs and paradoxes from, for lack of a better term, nullifying itself. Then it makes more sense. Especially given the Doctor
I admit, I have no conception of the Enemy from the novels. But the Daleks have had time travel for a long time, both in-universe and on our tv screens. The Time War is a little late to the party and doesn't appear to have been as subtle the novel's War.
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Post by Polar Bear on Dec 21, 2014 21:51:30 GMT
I think a War Doctor/Time War companion would be excellent! Wow... what an exciting idea! What sources can be scavenged? I'll start a list: - Day of the Doctor-"The First Day"/"Night of the Doctor" minisodes - Engines of War novel -Quick allusions in various 9th and 10th Doctor stories, many of which are developed further in C7's Time Traveler's Companion-The just-released Eighth Doctor Companion book - Dead Air (BBC audio story) -The issue of IDW's The Forgotten comic that has an 8-page (?) Eighth Doctor story set during the Time War What have I missed? All that being said, there's so very little extra-canonical Ninth Doctor material that I do think all of it should be combined. Maybe it should be titled "The Extracanonical Time War and Ninth Doctor s Supplement."
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jennysfan
Dominus Tempus
Moved awhile ago, still a mess
Posts: 195
Favourite Doctors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, 9, 10, 11 & 12 in no particular order
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Post by jennysfan on Dec 22, 2014 4:21:51 GMT
Don't forget the upcoming 'Seasons of War' anthology.
Not sure if this will make it into the Extra canonical 9th but it is not the first time we've played around with the idea.
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koloth
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 52
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Post by koloth on Sept 21, 2015 21:12:49 GMT
Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere but would The Corsair be added to this or 9th Doctor compendium?
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,246
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Sept 22, 2015 8:22:35 GMT
Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere but would The Corsair be added to this or 9th Doctor compendium? I don't think the Corsair has actually appeared in any stories, has he/she? If not, any write-up would largely be speculation so would probably not be included at all. Of course, I may have overlooked something, as there's so much new fiction appearing these days.
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Catsmate
13th Incarnation
It's complicated....
Posts: 3,753
Favourite Doctors: Thirteen, Six, Five, Two, Eight, Eleven, Twelve, One, Nine...
Traits: Eccentric, Insatiable Curiousity.
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Post by Catsmate on Sept 22, 2015 10:10:59 GMT
Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere but would The Corsair be added to this or 9th Doctor compendium? I don't think the Corsair has actually appeared in any stories, has he/she? If not, any write-up would largely be speculation so would probably not be included at all. Of course, I may have overlooked something, as there's so much new fiction appearing these days. Not so far, just references on TV, books and comics. And speculation about The Shopkeeper.
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,246
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Sept 22, 2015 10:20:44 GMT
Not so far, just references on TV, books and comics. And speculation about The Shopkeeper. I imagine that the Shopkeeper will almost certainly be included in whichever of the Spin-Offs volumes we include The Sarah Jane Adventures in. But as for the Corsair him/herself, it looks doubtful at the moment. I think one of the Brilliant Books included a list of bullet points about the Corsair, but not enough to base a full write-up on.
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Post by Siskoid on Sept 22, 2015 11:55:00 GMT
By the time we get to modern Who books, he/she might well show up (the comics are the likeliest place, maybe). Let's just keep our eyes peeled. Arrr!
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misterharry
Dominus Tempus
Dalek Caan's Lovechild
Posts: 3,246
Favourite Doctors: Second, Third, Fourth, Eleventh, Thirteenth
Traits: Empathic, Face in the Crowd, Insatiable Curiosity, Stubborn, Phobia (Heights), Unadventurous
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Post by misterharry on Oct 5, 2015 9:17:50 GMT
I've posted more details over in the Big Finish Discussion thread, but thought it worth also mentioning it here. Big Finish have announced that they are to release a series of four box-sets starring John Hurt as The War Doctor! Plus a prequel set starring the 8th Doctor in The Time War.
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Post by Siskoid on Oct 6, 2015 19:57:16 GMT
It all looks very cool. More and more reason to include the War Doc in the 9th Doc book.
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Boneguard
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 24
Favourite Doctors: War Doctor
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Post by Boneguard on Dec 27, 2015 13:31:05 GMT
Big Finish have announced that they are to release a series of four box-sets starring John Hurt as The War Doctor! Plus a prequel set starring the 8th Doctor in The Time War. Thank you very much. I didn't know about Big Finish before nie. Btw, the first episode is out. I haven't had time to listen to it though...but will soon
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jennysfan
Dominus Tempus
Moved awhile ago, still a mess
Posts: 195
Favourite Doctors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, 9, 10, 11 & 12 in no particular order
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Post by jennysfan on Dec 30, 2015 7:07:44 GMT
Big Finish have announced that they are to release a series of four box-sets starring John Hurt as The War Doctor! Plus a prequel set starring the 8th Doctor in The Time War. Thank you very much. I didn't know about Big Finish before nie. Btw, the first episode is out. I haven't had time to listen to it though...but will soon Actually Big Finish didn't release the first episode...it released the first box set; which in this case is three 'episodes'. Think Classic Series, multi-episode adventures for this Doctor. It is certainly what they are going with Story: Only The Monstrous Part One: The Innocent I'm a monster now, aren't I!?!Part Two: The Thousand Worlds PEACE IN OUR TIME! PEACE IN OUR TIME! PEACE IN OUR TIME! Part Three: The Heart of the Battle At the heart of the battle, where the blood of the innocence flows and Only the Monstrous survive.Note: The Companion list now includes; Cinder, Jenny Shirt & Rejoice, at the very least. Love his opening theme, by the by.
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jennysfan
Dominus Tempus
Moved awhile ago, still a mess
Posts: 195
Favourite Doctors: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, 9, 10, 11 & 12 in no particular order
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Post by jennysfan on Dec 31, 2015 6:14:23 GMT
Cardinal Ollistra will be playing a bigger role in Infernal Devices.
I've sort of begun writing a list; much like the ones for the Expanded Doctor sourcebooks...
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Boneguard
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 24
Favourite Doctors: War Doctor
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Post by Boneguard on Dec 31, 2015 11:10:03 GMT
Thank you very much. I didn't know about Big Finish before nie. Btw, the first episode is out. I haven't had time to listen to it though...but will soon Actually Big Finish didn't release the first episode...it released the first box set; which in this case is three 'episodes'. Think Classic Series, multi-episode adventures for this Doctor. It is certainly what they are going with I Realized that after I've downloaded it. I really liked it and can't wait for the second box set. Same goes for the novel "Engine of War", now at chapter 11 and I really enjoy it so far.
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