Two Hearts?

[olegrand]

In your opinion, did non-Time Lord Gallifreyans have two hearts - or does this only apply to Time Lords?

I know that there are no clear official answer on this, and that different sources (the TV shows, novels etc.) offer different answers (about this and other subjects - such as how Time Lords come to life etc.) - as can be seen here:

tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Gallifreyan_physiology

But the game also offers some contradictory advice on this question: the main rule books mention the two hearts thing as a "Gallifreyan" feature, while the Gallifreyan racial package in the TTC does not say anything about two hearts or the special respiratory bypass system, which seems to imply that these features are privileges granted to Time Lords only... so what do you think?

[da professor]

I'd class the two hearts as a species-wide thing. The respiratory bypass is also probably based on a physical feature of the species, but may need training, possibly at Time Lord Academy to use - like certain humans showing a degree of autonomic control after special training.

[Marnal]

The TV strongly implies that all Gallifreyans [Time Lord or not] have two hearts [except the 1st and 2nd Doctors!]

The Novels explicitly stated that most Gallifreyans are loomed with only 1 heart but pick the second one up at the time of their first regeneration [most of the novels give any Gallifreyan regeneration powers, even if they aren't a Time Lord.] Gallifreyans from the New Blood houses (like Romana) have upgraded looms that produce loomlings with two hearts right from the start.

The novels seem to indicate that naturally conceived children of two 2 hearted parents have two hearts from birth as well. But this is muddled due to various writers being unable to agree whether Susan has two hearts or not.

My take is that Old blood houses produce 1 hearted Gallifreyans who gain a second upon regeneration. And New Blood Houses produced Gallifreyans with 2 hearts. Biological reproduction between two 2 hearted parents produce 2 hearted kids, but if one parent it 1 hearted then the kid will also be one hearted [until their first regeneration]. All Gallifreyans [even non-Time Lords] can regenerate, but any Time Lord who is on his last incarnation is technically considered 'retired' and should have his TARDIS taken away.

[chickenpaddy]

I would like to say that the novels are never confirmed as canon. I take anything stated by the novels with a very large grain of salt. In the end, it's personal preference.

[Marnal]

The TV show was never confirmed as canon either. Nothing has ever been.
There's just licensed vs. unlicensed and one fan's opinion vs. another's. [which is all the original poster asked for]

[chickenpaddy]

Of course, of course. I didn't intend to deflate you advice. I'm sorry.

[Marnal]

No problem.
I find the expanded universe stuff to be very inspirational to my games, and great at surprising my players [cuz they know the show but not the EU]. That's why I share it.

[Escher]

Apr 22, 2014 5:56:46 GMT chickenpaddy said:

I would like to say that the novels are never confirmed as canon. I take anything stated by the novels with a very large grain of salt. In the end, it's personal preference.

I agree with this. I don't think there is any question of the show not being the authoritative source of confirmation for anything.

[olegrand]

Thanks to everyone for the advice... I think I'll be going for the following approac((h, which mixes elements from various sources:

- Only Time Lords can regenerate and only they have two hearts (the two being somehow linked)

- Non-Time Lord Gallifreyans (ie citadel guards, common people etc) only have one heart and cannot regenerate (ie they follow the Gallifreyan package from the TTC supplement).

- Time Lords are not created "fully-grown" from looms or whatever - they are born normally, as babies, and grow up normally too; they are Gallifrey's aristocracy and are, well, a "breed apart" - but their birth ratio is far lower than that of the commoners, and has become lower and lower over time, perhaps as the result of some ancient "curse" by the Pythia (so no complete sterility here) or some other mysterious phenomenon.

What do you think ?

[Marnal]

Well the BBC ignores the show all the time. The only thing that ever seems to guaranteed not to be contradicted is what happened last season. Its an authoritative source only in that its the LEAST likely to be ignored.

[chickenpaddy]

Apr 24, 2014 18:59:27 GMT olegrand said:

Thanks to everyone for the advice... I think I'll be going for the following approac((h, which mixes elements from various sources:

- Only Time Lords can regenerate and only they have two hearts (the two being somehow linked)

- Non-Time Lord Gallifreyans (ie citadel guards, common people etc) only have one heart and cannot regenerate (ie they follow the Gallifreyan package from the TTC supplement).

- Time Lords are not created "fully-grown" from looms or whatever - they are born normally, as babies, and grow up normally too; they are Gallifrey's aristocracy and are, well, a "breed apart" - but their birth ratio is far lower than that of the commoners, and has become lower and lower over time, perhaps as the result of some ancient "curse" by the Pythia (so no complete sterility here) or some other mysterious phenomenon.

What do you think ?

Sounds good. Some nice elements from the EU and regular series. The Doctor did mention that Time Lord children were presented in front of the Untempered Schism, so they have to be children at some point.

The Time Traveller's Companion source book from Cubicle 7 does talk about Gallifreyans earning the Rassilon Imprimatur and becoming Time Lords through years of academic study. Just something to consider.

[Escher]

Apr 24, 2014 20:37:12 GMT Marnal said:

Well the BBC ignores the show all the time. The only thing that ever seems to guaranteed not to be contradicted is what happened last season. Its an authoritative source only in that its the LEAST likely to be ignored.

That's a very good point you make. Indeed, Steven Moffat has been criticised over this; and then it's up to us to make sense of it.

[Curufea]

I should point out - there was a disturbing lack of any regeneration whatsoever in the 50th Anniversary Special. It should have been happening all over the place, or at least with some of the guards. Unless the only Time Lords seen were the ones around the map table.

[chickenpaddy]

They've only got so much money in the SFX budget, Curufea. And they're not going to use it on that.

[Hedgewick]

Apr 28, 2014 6:05:03 GMT chickenpaddy said:

They've only got so much money in the SFX budget, Curufea. And they're not going to use it on that.

This is to say nothing of the fact that Time Lords can, in fact, die, and we must presume that a great many did during the battles of the Time War.

[Catsmate]

Apr 28, 2014 15:31:05 GMT Hedgewick said:

Apr 28, 2014 6:05:03 GMT chickenpaddy said:

They've only got so much money in the SFX budget, Curufea. And they're not going to use it on that.

This is to say nothing of the fact that Time Lords can, in fact, die, and we must presume that a great many did during the battles of the Time War.

And the Daleks may have weapons designed, like the staser, specifically to kill Gallifreyans.

[Polar Bear]

Apr 24, 2014 18:59:27 GMT olegrand said:

Thanks to everyone for the advice... I think I'll be going for the following approac((h, which mixes elements from various sources:

- Only Time Lords can regenerate and only they have two hearts (the two being somehow linked)
What do you think ?

I'd adjust this to read, "...only they have two hearts (the two being somehow linked), and that only after their first regeneration."  The First Doctor had only one heart.

[Escher]

Apr 28, 2014 21:09:35 GMT Polar Bear said:

Apr 24, 2014 18:59:27 GMT olegrand said:

Thanks to everyone for the advice... I think I'll be going for the following approac((h, which mixes elements from various sources:

- Only Time Lords can regenerate and only they have two hearts (the two being somehow linked)
What do you think ?

I'd adjust this to read, "...only they have two hearts (the two being somehow linked), and that only after their first regeneration."  The First Doctor had only one heart.

Interestingly enough, in the game the first doctor he is definitely two-hearted. Check out page 7 of the first doc sourcebook: New Trait; Faulty heart (major bad – Time Lords only ) One of the Time Lord’s hearts is defective or weak and fails during moments of extreme stress or exertion, causing great pain followed by unconsciousness and, on rare occasions, regeneration.

The first doctor has this trait (although the PDF is not yet updated to show this, the hardback copy does).

[Polar Bear]

Ah--I have the PDF only.

In such a case, I'd rule that the TV's canonicity overrules the game's canonicity, but to each their own.

[chickenpaddy]

Is it really TV canon that the First Doctor only has a single heart? I'm by no means a First Doctor expert, but I think it would make more sense in the long run if Time Lords have two hearts throughout their lives. I, personally would chalk that up to the writer's having not fully established just what Time Lords are at that point. But, like the Polar Bear says, to each their own. And who am I to argue with the cuddliest predator of the north.

[misterharry]

May 1, 2014 5:48:40 GMT chickenpaddy said:

Is it really TV canon that the First Doctor only has a single heart?

I think this is based on Ian checking the unconscious Doctor in The Edge of Destruction and saying something like "His heart is all right". Could he have missed the second heart? It's possible, particularly in the confusion of everything else that's happening.

Going by TV evidence, it's also possible to make a case that the 2nd Doctor has a single heart. In The Wheel in Space, he's given a medical check-up which doesn't reveal that he's alien. Again, could the second heartbeat have been missed? Again, it's possible - though it doesn't say much for Gemma Corwyn's medical ability! (or perhaps, as the Doctor was conscious in this case, he spent a Story Point to stop one of his hearts for a few seconds during the examination!)

[Escher]

Apr 30, 2014 23:50:01 GMT Polar Bear said:

Ah--I have the PDF only.

In such a case, I'd rule that the TV's canonicity overrules the game's canonicity, but to each their own.

Oh I'm absolutely with you on this, show takes precedence every time for me too.

It does also open up an interesting choice of options for creative GM's to incorporate something into their game continuity if they wish.


My current list of creative choices are:



The Show Rationale


The First and Second Doctors had one heart each because:

1. The first Doctor used the Chameleon Arch on himself and Susan to help evade the Time Lords by changing their physiology (one heart, little or no psychic ability etc.). We could elaborate on this by even suggesting that he wiped their Gallifreyan knowledge nearly to the point of amnesia (perhaps The Doctor knew exactly how to pilot a TARDIS). The less like true Time Lords they were, they easier it would be to avoid detection.

2. The Doctor was half human and after enforced regeneration at the end of The War Games, the Time Lords ‘corrected’ this. This option opens up a new can of worms but alludes to the events of The Doctor Who Movie, with the Eighth Doctor stating he is ‘half human’.



The Game Rationale


The First and Second Doctors had two hearts and these were not detected because:

(Paraphrasing misterharry)

Ian checked the unconscious Doctor in The Edge of Destruction and missed the second heart because, as per the ‘Faulty Heart’ Trait, it had momentarily stopped.

In The Wheel in Space, he's given a medical check-up which didn't reveal that he's alien. The second heartbeat was been missed because the Doctor spent a Story Point to stop one of his hearts for a few seconds during the examination (he didn’t want to be complicate the situation by being revealed as an alien).

[Pertwee]

As for the TTC, it is intended that all Gallifreyans possess two hearts. Just like their mild psychic abilities, it is a physiological trait of the race, not the Rassilon Imprimatur (respiritory bypass included but, yes, you need to learn how to control it). Longevity is a feature of Gallifreyan medical tech, but Regeneration, time senses, symbiotic nuclei and anything covered by the Extraordinary Feats rule would be granted by investiture after graduation. The TTC also assumes non-looming, natural birth (my preference) but doesn't explicitly rule it out, my goal to create a resource that was usable by folks running whatever style game they want, including one based off the Marvel Comics.

As for the Faulty Heart Trait, I wrote that specifically to fill in that small point of discontinuity, as the Doctor is only 'one hearted' when people are examining his unconscious body. And I heartily agree that the Second Doctor should have the Biorythmic Control Trait to represent his ability to control his heartsbeat, especially as he clearly has two of them in The Two Doctors.

As for the guards and soldiers on Gallifrey during the Time War, it all fits neatly into the TTC explanation of Time Soldiers: plebeian soldiers who are given limited temporal training and fight in the war in order to gain the Rassilon Imprimatur without all that tedious mucking about with the Academy. No Imprimatur, no regeneration. But even without that explanation, Dalek Weapons are fairly deadly (and I wouldn't imagine they'd go into a Time War with Gallifrey without designing personal weapons that make Stasers look like pop guns). I think the 10th only started regenerating and didn't die instantly in Journey's End because it clearly clips him on the run instead of hitting him directly. But that's all supposition, on my part.

[Polar Bear]

I like all your answers, by the way.

[olegrand]

May 1, 2014 14:56:18 GMT Pertwee said:

As for the TTC, it is intended that all Gallifreyans possess two hearts. Just like their mild psychic abilities, it is a physiological trait of the race, not the Rassilon Imprimatur (respiritory bypass included but, yes, you need to learn how to control it). Longevity is a feature of Gallifreyan medical tech, but Regeneration, time senses, symbiotic nuclei and anything covered by the Extraordinary Feats rule would be granted by investiture after graduation. The TTC also assumes non-looming, natural birth (my preference) but doesn't explicitly rule it out, my goal to create a resource that was usable by folks running whatever style game they want, including one based off the Marvel Comics.

As for the Faulty Heart Trait, I wrote that specifically to fill in that small point of discontinuity, as the Doctor is only 'one hearted' when people are examining his unconscious body. And I heartily agree that the Second Doctor should have the Biorythmic Control Trait to represent his ability to control his heartsbeat, especially as he clearly has two of them in The Two Doctors.

As for the guards and soldiers on Gallifrey during the Time War, it all fits neatly into the TTC explanation of Time Soldiers: plebeian soldiers who are given limited temporal training and fight in the war in order to gain the Rassilon Imprimatur without all that tedious mucking about with the Academy. No Imprimatur, no regeneration. But even without that explanation, Dalek Weapons are fairly deadly (and I wouldn't imagine they'd go into a Time War with Gallifrey without designing personal weapons that make Stasers look like pop guns). I think the 10th only started regenerating and didn't die instantly in Journey's End because it clearly clips him on the run instead of hitting him directly. But that's all supposition, on my part.

OK, so the big difference with my proposed interpretation is that there is no direct link between "two hearts" and "regenerations". So, to sum things up:

Gallifreyan physiology (all Gallifreyans) : two hearts and bypass respiratory system

Rassilon imprimatur (Time Lords only) : regenerations (and, of course, "feel the turn of the universe" etc.)

This makes sense - I think I'll choose this interpretation. Thanks a lot to everyone - it was an enlightening discussion.

[Bewildered Badger]

In 'The Mind Of Evil', the Third Doctor is attacked by the Keller machine and rendered unconscious. The Master revives him, stating that one of his hearts had stopped. So it appears that certain injuries can cause heart failure.

[zebaroth]

read somewhere that Gallifreyans start with one heart and get another one when they have there 1st
regeneration

[Marnal]

See my notes above about how this concept has been dealt with in the novels.

[Catsmate]

Personally I ignore the continuity glitches and simply take the two hearts as normal Gallifreyan physiology..