Technology Level Questions

[nathanbrazil]

I had a few questions about Technology Levels and was looking for some more definition
TL 4 is listed as Industrial (18th-20th Century) Industrial Revolution, steam manufacturing

TL 5 is listed as Space Faring (Late 20th, Early 21st Century) - Systemwide space travel

TL 6 is listed as Star Faring (Late 21st -30th Century) - Venturing into space, FTL travel

My question was in with time periods. I am trying to model characters Home Technology Levels. I know in real life our TL is in flux and improving all the time so it is not exact (1982 was TL4. It is now 1983, it now TL5!), but I want to get sort of close to that.

A.How would one define TL4 20th Century vs TL5 Late 20th Century?
Is WWI TL 4 or TL5? I would think TL 4 as it is definitely Early 20th, no spaceflight aside from individual rocket experimentation
Is WWII TL4 or TL5? I would think TL 4 as we have no real spaceflight yet (V2 missiles aside)
1950's?
1960's? Very primitive spaceflight (compared to the show) exists but not too much is different from 1950s.
1970's? Is late enough to be Late 20th Century
1980's? Is the invention of the IBM PC in TL4 or TL5?

B.Now since about the future for TL 5 and TL 6
Is 2059 (The Waters of Mars) TL5 or TL6?

[korith]

Keep in mind that tech levels are an abstract thing. There's always that remote chance that a civilization manages to assemble a superintelligent clockwork AI before splitting the atom, after all.

Taking the titles literally, TL5 would begin in 1961, with Yuri Gagarin exiting the atmosphere in a Soviet rocket. One might argue that a greater accomplishment (such as the 1969 moon landing) might initiate the TL5 period, or even that we haven't reached it yet (despite the given dates) because we haven't sent an astronaut to Pluto. For my purposes, I'd probably go with the 1961 threshold. The remainder of the TL5 features will appear eventually.

That said, one might argue that certain cultures and/or individuals are at an effectively lower tech level - there are several nations on Earth that haven't launched a rocket into space, but they still have citizens who could conceivably obtain and use an iPad. This opens up the possibility that TL5 is the point at which the means of systemwide space travel are generally understood, in basic terms - ie, if you burn fuel to create a powerful enough thrust, you can accelerate upwards to the point where you eventually exit the atmosphere. Fuel/mass ratios, launching in the same direction Earth's spin to take advantage of the momentum and an understanding of the metallurgical parameters of lightweight titanium alloys aren't required to be a member of a TL5 society. Similarly, if you handed an iPod to a rocket scientist from the 1970s, they could very well fail to get it to play the song that they're looking for. In such situations, it's probably fair for the GM to assign a penalty for using a device in an unskilled manner. The concept of digital sound storage and ear buds probably aren't beyond the rocket scientist - they've just never encountered an interface like the iPod one before.

One could potentially argue that we have reached TL 6, given that we've managed to get a probe to exit our solar system, but for purposes of this game, I think we finally would achieve this TL upon physically reaching a neighboring star, whether by FTL travel or by near-lightspeed means. FTL travel would eventually be a feature of TL6 society, but it could be anything from the catalyst that causes society to progress to this level to the result of a growing demand for faster interstellar transit times.

So, the shorthand version, at least so far as I'm concerned -
1701-1961: TL4
1961-20XX: TL5 (where 20XX would be the earlier of humanity reaching a neighbouring star or launching an FTL ship)
20XX-2999: TL6

It's also helpful to keep in mind that, given that this is a game oriented about time travel, there may well be individuals or organisations within a given time period who belong to an effectively more advanced age. Conceivably, a Torchwood game could involve present-day characters who have become accustomed to using TL6 devices. In such a case, raise the question of which tech level the character is typically more comfortable with - whether it's the everyday amenities they use at home, or the alien-inspired prototech that they work with in the hopes of preparing humanity in the face of potential alien invasion.

[daemos]

But you're forgetting that Quatermass has been made part of the Doctor Who universe meaning TL5 would begin with the launch of the Q1 in 1953.

[knasser]

William Gibson once remarked that "the Future is here, it's just not widely distributed".

And I like that. As it applies to TL in the game, I kind of see it as follows. We are TL 5. We more or less have the technology to travel between planets, we could, just about, set up a manned base on Mars and, in theory though not in practice, we could almost make it self-sustaining. But we haven't done yet and we don't have the political will or infrastructure to really do this yet. So we're in the early stages of TL 5, we have the technology just about, but not yet widely used. We certainly haven't yet made the physics breakthroughs necessary to get us into the starfaring TL 6 level. But these are broad categories. I could see a TL 5 civilisation sending people to another star and still being TL5, but they'd do it in a majestically TL 5 sort of way - e.g. building massive generational starships in which people grew up, reproduced and died, or else were cryogenically frozen and revived (if lucky) by chemicals and medical care at the other end. And they'd do it at tremendous cost to their society. A TL 6 society would be creating smallish craft capable of FTL travel and, even if they weren't zipping between stars like you or I would walk to the shops, it wont be breaking the backs of society. Or at least a standard TL6 society. There would be entry level TL6 societies, like ours is an entry level TL5, where they'd just perfected a FTL ship but it was their equivalent of our Apollo mission.
If you want to break down a TL further, you could always create TL5a, TL5b, TL5c, TL5d, etc. We might be at TL5c, a person from the Forties could be TL5b - happy enough with basic concepts like cars, able to get what and how a TV works even if stunned by their sophistication and prevalence, and they can liken a computer to a typewriter attached to a TV, and email to telegraphy. It's still going to blow them away, but they're at least in the right era.

If you wanted hard and fast rules, you could say that if the scientists of that society understand the principles of something, then it's that TL, but prevalence and implementation could be governed by letters a-f.

a: principles understood by science, no implementation.
b: some practical steps taken towards adoption of technology, still no social use made of it
c: some general use of the technology, not yet refined or widespread
d: technology very significant part of society / widely used
e: technology heavily integrated into society, steps taken toward big projects with it
f: maximum use made of technology

So a TL4b society would have Watt demonstrating his Steam Engine and maybe a few giggling people had taken a ride in Stevenson's Rocket (an early train on a limited and fixed track). By TL4d, people are taking trains to the seaside and telegrams are sizzling their way across the American West. At TL4e, you're seeing grand projects such as the Empire State Building or giant ironclad warships pounding ports with thumping guns. It doesn't have to be a steady progression from TL to TL. Perhaps we went from TL4e to TL5a with research into Nuclear Power and General Relativity.

The scientists of TL4e would still be looking at the interesting properties of various chemicals and ways to strengthen steel. When we pass into TL5a, suddenly the halls are buzzing with talk of atoms, protons and electrons, of the redshifting of starlight. Nothing has changed at the social level yet and wont for thirty years, but we're entering TL5a - a new era is birthing.

Hope that helps,

Khadim.

[knasser]

Jul 22, 2010 9:22:14 GMT daemos said:

But you're forgetting that Quatermass has been made part of the Doctor Who universe meaning TL5 would begin with the launch of the Q1 in 1953.

What? Quatermass is part of Doctor Who cannon? It certainly fits well, but when did this happen? I missed this!

K.

[kaemaril]

Jul 22, 2010 9:50:21 GMT knasser said:

Jul 22, 2010 9:22:14 GMT daemos said:

But you're forgetting that Quatermass has been made part of the Doctor Who universe meaning TL5 would begin with the launch of the Q1 in 1953.

What? Quatermass is part of Doctor Who cannon? It certainly fits well, but when did this happen? I missed this!

K.

Rememberance of the Daleks. Dr Jensen says she wishes Bernard, from the British Rocket Group, were there. The British Rocket Group also gets mentioned in the Christmas Invasion.

And I'm not sure but I think Quatermass also gets a name check in Planet of the Dead.

[Craig Oxbrow]

He does, but Malcolm naming a unit of measurement after him could be an actual person or a fictional character - they've always been careful to nod and wink rather than out-and-out claim it.

[korith]

So it seems, but as I was unfamiliar with Quatermass, I couldn't have reasonably accounted for that.

That said, if you're running a game where Quatermass is canon (and well known), then 1953 would seem perfectly reasonable as the beginning of TL5.

[nathanbrazil]

Thank you for the replies so far . I play or at least read many SF rpgs and often write conversions from one game to another. Right now for AiTaS I am writing up conversions to/from Traveller, FASA Dr Who game, TimeLord and D20 System (aka D20 Modern and Dungeons and TimeLords ;D). I also am assigning TL or TL ranges for gadgets and weapons mentioned in the current books.

[maddoctor]

If I might ask, why do you feel the need to establish such precise dates? My understanding of the TL system is to establish the comfort characters from certain periods will have with technology from another.

I think knasser has provided a wonderful breakdown of how technology permeates into society following the establishment of general principles, but is there really a need to establish this in game terms? If a scientist from a TL 5 world has a high tech skill, they will naturally be ahead of the curve when encountering new devices. I for one, am happy with leaving the number as an abstraction, especially considering how much technology (and comfort with it) varies within and among societies in any give period.

[knasser]

Jul 22, 2010 14:50:48 GMT nathanbrazil said:

Thank you for the replies so far . I play or at least read many SF rpgs and often write conversions from one game to another. Right now for AiTaS I am writing up conversions to/from Traveller, FASA Dr Who game, TimeLord and D20 System (aka D20 Modern and Dungeons and TimeLords ;D). I also am assigning TL or TL ranges for gadgets and weapons mentioned in the current books.

I don't know how detailed all of those other games get... But if you want to accurately model technology levels, it's not just a matter of granualarity (i.e. do you have ten technology levels, twenty, a hundred, etc,); you must also track two other dimensions. The first is prevalence / penetration as I went into earlier: there's what the society has discovered, and then there's what society has actually built with it. The transition from theory to practice if you like. The second dimension you need to add is a break down according to the area of technology. As Korith pointed out, a society might make an intelligent clockwork AI before they discover the splitting of the atom. Imagine a submarine species that refined selective breeding to a fine art, developed an industry of mechanical systems powered by currents, but never discovered fire.

You'd need to start creating different tracks for different areas of Technology. At the lowest levels of a track, it would be hard for one track to get so very far ahead of another - hard to perfect genetic engineering if you haven't created the electron microscope, hard to manufacture those if you haven't got a working paradigm of particle physics. But you could certainly progress further in some areas than others and once you get to a high enough level that a society really can branch, then specialisms might work fine. A species could be TL5 in most areas, but TL6 in medicine and related fields. A machine civilisation might be dreadful at biological sciences but have an incredible theory of FTL travel.

I don't know how many tracks you'd need to break things down into. Computing, Materials Science, Power Production, Biological Sciences... Depends how detailed you'd want to get. Obviously there is interaction between these tracks.

Really, how detailed do you want to get? How detailed are these other games?

K.

[nathanbrazil]

Jul 22, 2010 17:02:30 GMT maddoctor said:

If I might ask, why do you feel the need to establish such precise dates? My understanding of the TL system is to establish the comfort characters from certain periods will have with technology from another.

I think knasser has provided a wonderful breakdown of how technology permeates into society following the establishment of general principles, but is there really a need to establish this in game terms? If a scientist from a TL 5 world has a high tech skill, they will naturally be ahead of the curve when encountering new devices. I for one, am happy with leaving the number as an abstraction, especially considering how much technology (and comfort with it) varies within and among societies in any give period.

I had originally statted up the 1st Doctor's 1960's companions (Ian, Barbara and so on) as Home TL 4 and not 5. Did not feel quite right. My selection of dates more in line to get the discussion started.

I have been gaming for decades now. My first experiences were "simulationist" and not not "storytelling" in nature. That, combined with number crunching is a hobby of mine. Some might say a bad habit. Other games, for their puposes, have Tech Levels, so I was trying to sync up TL's between games. As an example, for D20 Modern

PL	Description	Home TL	Description
0	Stone Age	1	Stone Age
1	Bronze Age	2	Bronze Age to Middle Ages
2	Iron Age/Most D&D	2	Bronze Age to Middle Ages
3	Age of Reason	3	15th-17th Century Earth
4	Industrial Age	4	Industrial
5	Information Age (today)	5	Late 20th, Early 21st Century, Systemwide Space Travel
6	Fusion Age (Interplanetary)	5	Late 20th, Early 21st Century, Systemwide Space Travel
7	Gravity Age(Interstellar)	6	Star Faring
8	Energy Age	7	Advanced Interstellar
9	Matter Age (Initial Time Travel)	8	Time Faring
10+		9+

It is part of my idiosynchrocies.

[nathanbrazil]

As was pointed granularity is one factor. Sometimes it translates well, somtimes things are rolled up too much(as below from D&D 3.0).

D&D Age	Home TL	Description
Stone Age	1	Stone Age
Bronze Age	2	Bronze Age to Middle Ages
Dark Ages	2	Bronze Age to Middle Ages
Crusades	2	Bronze Age to Middle Ages

The other one mentioned was penetration prevalance, which while correct, is often disregarded in games. In many games, it is disregarded and only prevelance is assumed.

[nathanbrazil]

Finally I have one for Traveller, too. Is there a better location to discuss conversions from other games on the boards/forums?

TL	Description	Home TL	Description
0	Stone Age	1	Stone Age
1	Bronze Age/Iron Age	2	Bronze Age to Middle Ages
2	Renaissance	3	Renaissance
3-5	Early 19th - Mid 20th Century	4	Industrial
6-8	Dawn of the Space Age - In System Travel	5	Late 20th, Early 21st Century, Systemwide Space Travel
9-16	Interstellar Travel	6	Star Faring
17?	Matter Transmission (Classic Traveller)	7	Advanced Interstellar-Far Future Earth, Transmat
?		8	Advanced Timefaring (Daleks - DARDIS)
35	Pinching off pocket universes (Classic Traveller)	10	Time Lord

[korith]

You seem to have merged TLs 8 and 9

[Curufea]

There should be a level above Time Lord as well.
Time Lords can do pocket dimensions - but some folk (notably I. M. Foreman) can create bottle universes. This was highly prized by the Time Lords which just goes to show they lacked the means to create sub-universes.

[nathanbrazil]

Jul 28, 2010 21:58:54 GMT Curufea said:

There should be a level above Time Lord as well.
Time Lords can do pocket dimensions - but some folk (notably I. M. Foreman) can create bottle universes. This was highly prized by the Time Lords which just goes to show they lacked the means to create sub-universes.

I did not put in intermediate or higher comparisons, as there are few or no examples from the Traveller game universe. The highest mentioned is Tech Level 35, which is mentioned in Secret of the Ancients adventure. Pinching off pocket universes seemed a good fit for Time Lord technology ("It's bigger on the inside"). And yes I accidentally combined Dalek TL with previous one.