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Awareness and...? « Thread Started on Dec 20, 2009, 10:04am »
This might seem like a silly question but after scouring the rules this weekend I cannot find the answer. Not to say it isn't there but I couldn't find it. Heh.
When I was running Arrowdown for some friends last week the one thing we had to make up on the fly was rolls to notice things. You have an Awareness stat but there is no appropriate skill to go with it.
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do."
Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #1 on Dec 20, 2009, 12:56pm »
Try Gamesmasters guide page 27.
Noticing or spotting something important is another tricky one that can be used in multiple ways. If the character is not actively looking for something and you want to give the player a chance to see the giant bug before it attacks, they will have to make an Attribute only roll, usually Awareness and Ingenuity. However, if they’re searching old books for a clue, looking into medical records for information or something like that, if the character’s skills or knowledge comes into play, then it’s Awareness paired with the Skill. As a rough guide: Passively noticing something (not actively looking, but there’s a chance of seeing it): Awareness + Ingenuity Actively looking for something: Awareness + Skill (related to the subject, Knowledge, Medicine, Technology, etc)
Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #2 on Dec 20, 2009, 4:49pm »
So, if you're actively looking for a monster.. Is it awareness and Knowledge (of what the monster looks like)?
If you're looking for a secret door.. Is it awareness and subterfuge?
I could totally see even for an active roll that awareness plus ingenuity still makes sense if there isn't an exact skill that comes into play. I would consider it a default if no specific skill matches.
So, if you're actively looking for a monster.. Is it awareness and Knowledge (of what the monster looks like)?
If you're looking for a secret door.. Is it awareness and subterfuge?
I could totally see even for an active roll that awareness plus ingenuity still makes sense if there isn't an exact skill that comes into play. I would consider it a default if no specific skill matches.
I would use an Awareness + Knowledge roll for the characters to notice a particular thing about a monster (like, for example, that the Dalek they are seeing has an odd fondness for poetry...). In regard to the secret door, Awareness + Subterfuge is valid. As you have suggested, I tend to use Awareness + Ingenuity as the default for perception checks or avoiding surprise etc. on the theory that perception involves seeing something (Awareness) and registering what you are seeing (Ingenuity). Noticing an activated self-destruct sequence on a spaceship control panel might be Awareness + Technology, for example.
I love the fact that the system is flexible and that skills don't have set attributes...allows me to tailor the requirements for skill rolls to the situation.
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do."
Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #5 on Dec 21, 2009, 3:21pm »
I think the general rule I'm going with is, for perception or surprise checks, my default will be awareness + ingenuity.
The exception, would be when it is to percieve something that would require training to comprehend or percieve in properly.
An example would be to find a specific mathematical equation in a listing of heiroglyphics. A certain degree of high math might be required in order to find the pattern within the symbols.
Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #7 on Dec 22, 2009, 12:02pm »
There's an argument that if there's something to be found that's important to the progression of the story, it should just be found. So if a secret door leads to the villain's lair, then the characters search for a few minutes and then one stumbles on the catch. Hiding away the door means you don't get to show off the lair, and where's the fun in that?
There's an argument that if there's something to be found that's important to the progression of the story, it should just be found. So if a secret door leads to the villain's lair, then the characters search for a few minutes and then one stumbles on the catch. Hiding away the door means you don't get to show off the lair, and where's the fun in that?
That's certainly true, but if you were to fight a enemy, the players would expect some form of mechanic arbitration. Some players enjoy the mechanic and the 'luck of the dice' as much as the story. To leave that out would make the game less enjoyable for them. If I had a situation like that, where it was crucial that they find it to move to the next area, then either I could secretly make it an easy difficulty, OR (and here's what I'd most likely do) I would consider the level of success. Anything greater than a disaster should give some clue, no matter how slight to have them either keep looking, or help them hone their search. If there's a disastrous roll, I would maybe offer a small trap. The beauty of a trap, is that everybody knows that you don't put a trap on something unimportant... So keep digging!
I've found that 'Awareness and Technology' is the combo I call for most often as people are always examining strange machines!
That makes sense for that reason, but there should be a notice skill for general awareness.
What do you use to spot an ambush (awareness + subterfugue seems an odd combo)? What about to notice/sense a slight disruption to the space/time continum where a character is?
And so on. Where everything else is stat plus skill, having stat plus stat seems an odd departure.
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do."
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #10 on Dec 22, 2009, 4:48pm »
Hullo, Eryx,
Well, I'm coming late to the party on this one as I'm catching up on my e-mail and forums and all that, but I thought I would chime in.
This might seem like a silly question but after scouring the rules this weekend I cannot find the answer. Not to say it isn't there but I couldn't find it. Heh.
When I was running Arrowdown for some friends last week the one thing we had to make up on the fly was rolls to notice things. You have an Awareness stat but there is no appropriate skill to go with it.
Am I missing something in the rule book? Thanks.
No, you're not missing anything. Perception rolls are dealt with on page 27 of the GM Guide. The basic roll to notice stuff is Awareness + Ingenuity. If you're looking for something else however, it's Awareness + relevant Skill.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #11 on Dec 22, 2009, 4:57pm »
I would use an Awareness + Knowledge roll for the characters to notice a particular thing about a monster (like, for example, that the Dalek they are seeing has an odd fondness for poetry...). In regard to the secret door, Awareness + Subterfuge is valid. As you have suggested, I tend to use Awareness + Ingenuity as the default for perception checks or avoiding surprise etc. on the theory that perception involves seeing something (Awareness) and registering what you are seeing (Ingenuity). Noticing an activated self-destruct sequence on a spaceship control panel might be Awareness + Technology, for example.
I love the fact that the system is flexible and that skills don't have set attributes...allows me to tailor the requirements for skill rolls to the situation.
I pretty much agree with everything you said here, since that's how I'm using the Awareness + relevant Skill rolls, and just want to add that your logic for perception checks to avoid surprise and all makes perfect sense game mechanics-wise.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
That makes sense for that reason, but there should be a notice skill for general awareness.
What do you use to spot an ambush (awareness + subterfugue seems an odd combo)? What about to notice/sense a slight disruption to the space/time continum where a character is?
And so on. Where everything else is stat plus skill, having stat plus stat seems an odd departure.
I'm still fine with double awareness. Stat plus stat or stat plus skill seems a strength of the system rather than a failing to me. It allows the GM to pick pretty much anything to suit all manner of circumstances. I'm a fan of asking players to 'make me an offer' when it comes to skill/stat pairings. Your mileage may vary though.
Thanks guys. Seems odd that everything else is stat+skill, but makes sense.
Why does this seem odd to you? There are plenty of examples of rolls and the like in the game that are Attribute + Attribute. So, not so odd after all.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #14 on Dec 22, 2009, 7:24pm »
I use double awareness rather than awareness plus anything for standard perception rolls.
I've found that 'Awareness and Technology' is the combo I call for most often as people are always examining strange machines!
Double Awareness? Hmm...that's an interesting way of handling it. How do you rationalize that? It never occurred to me to use the same Attribute *twice*, as that didn't seem to be common for all the other types of Attributes tests and tasks.
hehe Yeah, lots of strange machinery examination in the series and the game.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #15 on Dec 22, 2009, 7:47pm »
There's an argument that if there's something to be found that's important to the progression of the story, it should just be found. So if a secret door leads to the villain's lair, then the characters search for a few minutes and then one stumbles on the catch. Hiding away the door means you don't get to show off the lair, and where's the fun in that?
While what you say is true, that raises the point about Skills and Story Points. Frankly, if one wants to do it the way you suggest, they why not do this with all other abilities? Why bother having game Skills and why bother having Story Points?
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #16 on Dec 22, 2009, 7:49pm »
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #17 on Dec 22, 2009, 9:48pm »
There's an argument that if there's something to be found that's important to the progression of the story, it should just be found. So if a secret door leads to the villain's lair, then the characters search for a few minutes and then one stumbles on the catch. Hiding away the door means you don't get to show off the lair, and where's the fun in that?
That's like old text adventure or point&click games. Problems of that kind should not occur in well written adventures.
You should not have on/off problems that halt plots. You should have variable ways of the plot proceeding, some easier, some harder, some fast, some slow.
A failure at a critical task should result in a setback - not a crash&burn.
That makes sense for that reason, but there should be a notice skill for general awareness.
Here's a question for you... Do you consider perceptiveness and the ability to see things around you to be a skill or to be a natural ability?
It depends on what you are looking at. I am a UNIX administrator (Computer systems). If I am looking at a script that someone wrote, and trying to debug it, it requires my scripting 'knowledge' (like a skill) to find it. No matter what my eyes percieve, without the knowledge in progamming, I would be unable to find the issue.
In Doctor WHO, they are often looking to find specific things, as opposed to just watching for someone who they are hiding from. Many RPGs don't focus on that type of scenario, partly because the mechanics aren't designed to do it.
Here's a question for you... Do you consider perceptiveness and the ability to see things around you to be a skill or to be a natural ability?
It depends on what you are looking at. I am a UNIX administrator (Computer systems). If I am looking at a script that someone wrote, and trying to debug it, it requires my scripting 'knowledge' (like a skill) to find it. No matter what my eyes percieve, without the knowledge in progamming, I would be unable to find the issue.
In Doctor WHO, they are often looking to find specific things, as opposed to just watching for someone who they are hiding from. Many RPGs don't focus on that type of scenario, partly because the mechanics aren't designed to do it.
Frankly, this is not true, at least not these days in the gaming industry. But we're not here to talk about games in general, we're talking the new game that we love so well.
Bear in mind that the DW: AiTaS rpg uses a very generic/general Skill system. Some may like this, some may not. Regardless of this, Perception is based on the idea that one interprets what one sees, what one hears, etc. That should always be covered by an Attribute, coupled with a bonus that we can use in the system through a Trait (such as Keen Senses). Not a skill. Skills are learned. Our physical senses are not learned, but can be enhanced by experience with the world around us, specifically things we do (like work in a chosen field). That is covered under a Skill.
Thus, in terms of the computer example that you cite above, that would be Awareness + Technology (the skill that covers Computers). And because of how you phrased things about the computer example, it would work just was well with Awareness + Ingenuity, because your scripting knowledge could be argued to be covered under that as well. However, the Technology skill works better when it comes to that. While a Notice Skill might be the preferred way some would handle this, it doesn't work in DW: AiTaS because the system of skills is more generic and general, much as how it was handled in systems like BUFFY and ANGEL. For what it's worth, I think the system works fine to this point, though I've only played one basic session with my players.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace. We've got work to do."
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #21 on Dec 22, 2009, 11:28pm »
Both. It is natural but you can train yourself to be more perceptive of the world around you.
I'd go along with that. There are instincts from birth that evolution has provided for us for the reasons of survival. These include a tendency to anthropomorphise everything. From seeing human-shaped patterns in random shapes, to human-type motivations in non-human creatures and even random events.
In this case, we naturally are very good at spotting humanoids. Hence most camouflage used by the military primarily deals with breaking up the humanoid shape.
So perception is partly nature and partly nurture - you can train yourself to spot things others do not. Artists do this all the time, as does any profession involving eyesight.
While what you say is true, that raises the point about Skills and Story Points. Frankly, if one wants to do it the way you suggest, they why not do this with all other abilities? Why bother having game Skills and why bother having Story Points?
Hi, John (Kim?)
Quite!
I was following lomythica's example of a secret door. It's easy to get into a habit of asking for rolls to unlock every step through the plot, and then not know how to handle a poor result, whether that's a perception check, or fight, or negotiation. But if I've come up with an interesting set piece or location, I want the players to see what mental budget I've spent.
So I only resort to randomness in games when any random result will be interesting. Fortunately, it seems like the AITAS system is interesting in that a 'no, but' result on a perception check can still bump the plot along - you don't find the secret door, but a Cyberman smashes through the wall.
Also, while we know that there is of course a chance that a character might not see something when searching a room for clues - that's where the tension is - that doesn't mean the tension has to be matched via dice.
Double Awareness? Hmm...that's an interesting way of handling it. How do you rationalize that? It never occurred to me to use the same Attribute *twice*, as that didn't seem to be common for all the other types of Attributes tests and tasks.
Using a double just makes sense to me when only one thing really applies. I'd allow double strength for a feat of pure strength, such as forcing open a door. I'd double it as otherwise you're attempting an action but only getting half of the bonus you might otherwise get.
However, if there is a skill or another attribute that applies but the player just doesn't have, then they'd not get to roll double stat. So I'd not allow a double awareness instead of an awareness and technology roll for instance.
I'd also allow a double skill roll, but I can't think of an occasion where only a skill and no attribute might apply.
Thus, in terms of the computer example that you cite above, that would be Awareness + Technology (the skill that covers Computers). And because of how you phrased things about the computer example, it would work just was well with Awareness + Ingenuity, because your scripting knowledge could be argued to be covered under that as well. However, the Technology skill works better when it comes to that. While a Notice Skill might be the preferred way some would handle this, it doesn't work in DW: AiTaS because the system of skills is more generic and general, much as how it was handled in systems like BUFFY and ANGEL. For what it's worth, I think the system works fine to this point, though I've only played one basic session with my players.
Just my $0.02, of course.
I agree with you on Computers being Awareness + Technology. That was my bad. When I was responding before, I wasn't thinking clearly in DWAITAS terms, but more generally, terming 'knowledge', in the basic mode that all skills are a form of knowledge. As far as Awareness + Ingenuity, I would question that as valid, unless the Technology level of the character was sufficiently higher than the code in question.
If the code would be considered 'elementary' by a character from an advanced civilization, and they would have learned it in their early schooling, then I would say it falls under Ingenuity. Otherwise, if it's at the same tech level, then I would make it Technology. I think of technology as a skill of 'current' technologies.
Perhaps that's not the right way to look at it. I welcome other opinions to help me sort out this theory.
Using a double just makes sense to me when only one thing really applies. I'd allow double strength for a feat of pure strength, such as forcing open a door. I'd double it as otherwise you're attempting an action but only getting half of the bonus you might otherwise get.
What about using Strength + Athletics for pure strength?
Here's a question for you... Do you consider perceptiveness and the ability to see things around you to be a skill or to be a natural ability?
Both. It is natural but you can train yourself to be more perceptive of the world around you.
Frankly, the training oneself to be more perceptive of the world around one is more a reflection of one's experience and one's skills then it is of any visual or hearing training. However, that said, my advice would be to tailor your use of perception rolls in the game according to your belief system. Either that, or go with the way it is set up in the game. 'Nuff said.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #27 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:34pm »
While what you say is true, that raises the point about Skills and Story Points. Frankly, if one wants to do it the way you suggest, they why not do this with all other abilities? Why bother having game Skills and why bother having Story Points?
I was following lomythica's example of a secret door. It's easy to get into a habit of asking for rolls to unlock every step through the plot, and then not know how to handle a poor result, whether that's a perception check, or fight, or negotiation. But if I've come up with an interesting set piece or location, I want the players to see what mental budget I've spent.
So I only resort to randomness in games when any random result will be interesting. Fortunately, it seems like the AITAS system is interesting in that a 'no, but' result on a perception check can still bump the plot along - you don't find the secret door, but a Cyberman smashes through the wall.
Also, while we know that there is of course a chance that a character might not see something when searching a room for clues - that's where the tension is - that doesn't mean the tension has to be matched via dice.
Joe.
When it comes right down to it, the dice rolling mechanics of any game are based on the idea that any task the character performs that has a chance of failure or success is one where a die roll comes in. Mysteries are difficult, because players can miss parts of the clue structure. I rather like the GUMSHOE game system approach to this, but to be be partial, the DW: AiTaS rpg solvges that with the mechanic that you mentioned.
I think that the problem is that some people feel that dice rolls are the be all and end all of rpgs, but for me, whether the players find the secret door or not is more a matter of what is better for the story and the plot that they're involved. That's the basic rule I've used for years now.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #28 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:50pm »
Hullo, Corone,
You make a very persuasive arguement for the use of the double Attribute at times for certain things in the game, and I think I will be implementing this, as it really does make a lot of sense. But feats of Strength by Sontarans, Ogrons, and some of the other races? Oy vey!
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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Re: Awareness and...? « Reply #29 on Dec 23, 2009, 8:54pm »
Thus, in terms of the computer example that you cite above, that would be Awareness + Technology (the skill that covers Computers). And because of how you phrased things about the computer example, it would work just was well with Awareness + Ingenuity, because your scripting knowledge could be argued to be covered under that as well. However, the Technology skill works better when it comes to that. While a Notice Skill might be the preferred way some would handle this, it doesn't work in DW: AiTaS because the system of skills is more generic and general, much as how it was handled in systems like BUFFY and ANGEL. For what it's worth, I think the system works fine to this point, though I've only played one basic session with my players.
Just my $0.02, of course.
I agree with you on Computers being Awareness + Technology. That was my bad. When I was responding before, I wasn't thinking clearly in DWAITAS terms, but more generally, terming 'knowledge', in the basic mode that all skills are a form of knowledge. As far as Awareness + Ingenuity, I would question that as valid, unless the Technology level of the character was sufficiently higher than the code in question.
If the code would be considered 'elementary' by a character from an advanced civilization, and they would have learned it in their early schooling, then I would say it falls under Ingenuity. Otherwise, if it's at the same tech level, then I would make it Technology. I think of technology as a skill of 'current' technologies.
Perhaps that's not the right way to look at it. I welcome other opinions to help me sort out this theory.
You actually raise an excellent point here about the level of technology compared to the character's own, but this would be a rule mess if one lets it. My inclination here would be to use the modifier as noted under the use technologies of different levels, and apply that here.
----- "You know, I am so constantly outwitting the opposition, I tend to forget the delight and satisfaction of the arts... the gentle art of fisticuffs." - The Doctor (The Romans)
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