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Post by Eryx on Nov 30, 2010 16:39:29 GMT
I recently rewatched the End of Time again and really hooked on to what the Doctor says about regenerating. Specifically the bit where he says "I die and another man walks away." The 9th Doctor says something about "I was fantastic" just before he regenerates.
I have always assumed that when a Time Lord regenerates he retains his memories even though the appearence and personality change. However these two references would seem to indicate to me that it's not just a way of staving off death, it is a death and it is a new man who walks away.
When the 10th Doctor says "I don't want to go" is it because he will die and be replaced or because he likes being that personality/person?
Thoughts?
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Post by Craig Oxbrow on Nov 30, 2010 17:07:49 GMT
The answer is of inevitably "it depends". Depending on the writers and producers involved, it's been written as renewal, as death and rebirth in a new form, as death and effective reincarnation with the knowledge of a former self... and that's just the Doctor. The Tenth Doctor, being written by Russell T Davies, views it as the latter, but perhaps the Ninth thought of it more as rebirth.
But then, the Master is clearly the same consciousness hopping from body to body (although his behaviour changes as a result of external forces) while Romana could regenerate on a whim and pick and choose what she became...
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korith
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 131
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Post by korith on Nov 30, 2010 17:16:18 GMT
I don't think there's a definitive answer to that. Regeneration is, fundamentally, a change.
Still, I think there are plenty of supporting arguments for either side.
The Ood told him his song would end soon. If it were merely a change, it might have been more apt to say that there'd be a change to his tune.
The 10th also speaks from the memories of 9 previous regenerations (well, okay...some, like 6th to 7th and 7th to 8th, he may not actually remember. Since we know nothing of the regeneration from 8th to 9th, it could be that regenerating while "older" might be a more terrible experience, and 9th did have a tendency to be quite brave in the face of things that are terrible).
From the "just a change" perspective, it seems that the Doctor relates to his companions in a fairly similar manner following regeneration (apart from perhaps being more friendly/cantankerous/gentle/abrasive as reflected in the personality changes). I might wonder if the 10th doctor might have been more afraid due to his lack of a companion during the time of his regeneration . Interestingly enough, the regenerations that were followed by amnesia also appear to have happened in the absence of a companion. A case might be made that the presence of such a companion might help stabilize the regeneration process, perhaps by helping the doctor remain in touch with "himself" through their memories.
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Post by da professor on Nov 30, 2010 18:41:45 GMT
A case might be made that the presence of such a companion might help stabilize the regeneration process, perhaps by helping the doctor remain in touch with "himself" through their memories. The native telepathy of Timelords might access said companions memories for just that purpose. Romana's ease of transition could be do to the fact that her regeneration happenned in the presence of another Timelord, whose own telepathic capabilities bolstered the process. |
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Post by Curufea on Nov 30, 2010 20:55:23 GMT
A case might be made that the presence of such a companion might help stabilize the regeneration process, perhaps by helping the doctor remain in touch with "himself" through their memories. The native telepathy of Timelords might access said companions memories for just that purpose. Romana's ease of transition could be do to the fact that her regeneration happenned in the presence of another Timelord, whose own telepathic capabilities bolstered the process. I prefer to think that as a swot, she aced her regeneration exams at the academy. The Doctor probably cut class that day. |
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Post by Eryx on Nov 30, 2010 22:28:45 GMT
A case might be made that the presence of such a companion might help stabilize the regeneration process, perhaps by helping the doctor remain in touch with "himself" through their memories. The native telepathy of Timelords might access said companions memories for just that purpose. Romana's ease of transition could be do to the fact that her regeneration happenned in the presence of another Timelord, whose own telepathic capabilities bolstered the process. Also I would assume that her regeneration wasn't brought about unnaturally the Doctor's tend to be. I put a lot of his madness/eccentricity down to forced regenerations. |
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jonsp
1st Incarnation
Posts: 9
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Post by jonsp on Dec 13, 2010 20:08:19 GMT
Good, very inclusive article on regeneration. Addresses a lot of the concepts discussed. tardis.wikia.com/wiki/RegenerationI've always been of the camp that The Doctor does become a new person when he regenerates, which seems to be born out by the show, both old and new. Particularly when different incarnations of The Doctor have met or commented on each other. (Six, for example, seemed to have a certain contempt for Five.) This makes sense, if you accept that his brain structure and chemistry change as significantly as his appearance. He might have the same memories (mostly; regeneration always seems to cause some degree of amnesia and confusion), but other personality factors, such as temperament, change significantly, which causes him to interpret, value, or associate his memories differently. (Kind of how Multiple Personality Disorder seems to work, at least from what I've read.) Of course would that open the possibility of a regeneration making The Doctor evil or The Master good? Actually, we do have The Valeyard (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Valeyard), so maybe so. |
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Post by Rel Fexive on Dec 13, 2010 20:32:29 GMT
Except The Valeyard isn't a regeneration, of course... but yes, certainly possible.
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Post by knasser on Dec 14, 2010 23:14:56 GMT
I consider memories to be preserved - with the exception of temporary confusion due to traumatic experiences - the series seems to lend a lot of weight to that. I think essential beliefs remain more or less in tact. Different Doctors have had slightly different attitudes, but no more so than someone would naturally change over that period of time with or without re-generation.
But within the constraints of the memories and the beliefs (which are informed by memories, after all?), the personality can undergo some radical shifts. And I disagree that relationships between the Doctor and companions remain the same. Peri was treated very differently by Five and Six. Three had a sort of paternalistic relationship with Sarah Jane. Four was much more of a co-conspirator.
Ten's talk to Wilf about re-generation was very moving, but not in contradiction to any of the above, I feel. In fact, it supports it I think.
K.
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korith
2nd Incarnation
Posts: 131
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Post by korith on Dec 15, 2010 19:20:31 GMT
As I've only a few stories with Peri (specifically, Planet of Fire, The Caves of Androzani and The Mark of the Rani), and I've got practically nothing of the 6th doctor (iTunes, fix this!), I haven't been able to observe much of the change in how the Doctor relates to her. If it does fall outside of the friendly/cantankerous/gentle/abrasive shifts I suggested may still apply, then it's quite possibly an effective refutation. That said, I might be able to fairly argue that due to her fairly limited experience with the Doctor from Planet of Fire to the Caves of Androzani, along with her own near death state prior to the Doctor's regeneration, she might not have been very useful for purposes of psychic stabilization anyhow  As for Sarah Jane, given that she was an extremely long term companion of the Doctor, the evolution from daughterly role to co-conspirator could potentially be a natural one. I suppose the key question is how drastic the relationship changed from immediately prior (Planet of Spiders) to immediately after (Robot) the doctor's regeneration. |
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Post by Escher on Dec 15, 2010 23:39:36 GMT
I have always assumed that when a Time Lord regenerates he retains his memories even though the appearence and personality change. However these two references would seem to indicate to me that it's not just a way of staving off death, it is a death and it is a new man who walks away. When the 10th Doctor says "I don't want to go" is it because he will die and be replaced or because he likes being that personality/person? Thoughts? I think it's because emotionally, for him, it had some big moments and he was pleased with his physical form so he liked that particular incarnation. What makes a person uniquely themselves is arguably their memories, personality and how they think and interact. The Doc would retain his memories after regenerating but would lose his personality and the way he interacts as that person. I'd say it's rather like a person suffering from a complete and catastrophic brain trauma - and then completely recovering from it but as a very changed person. After regenerating every single neuron, every brain cell - it would be one hell of a shake-up. New neural pathways must be created: after 10 and 11's regenerations they weren't sure who they were yet, perhaps lending weight to this notion - they literally create themselves anew as they go along. Effectively, after regenerating, the old person has been 'destroyed'. Perhaps metaphorically this was the 10th Doctors 'dying' he referred to. The pathways that made him uniquely himself would be destroyed. |
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Post by Curufea on Dec 17, 2010 10:20:40 GMT
There's an interesting implication put forward by Lawrence Miles in his notes on the About Time vol 3 new edition (the Pertwee years) regarding the regeneration of the Third Doctor (you can read the whole thing here - beasthouse-lm2.blogspot.com/2010/12/about-about-time-time.html ) But in summary - Rassilon invents regeneration after they defeat the Vampires - what if he stole their regeneration powers? What if Time Lords share similar vulnerabilities that would stop the regenerating that classic vampires have? |
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Post by Kit on Dec 17, 2010 16:58:15 GMT
There's an interesting implication put forward by Lawrence Miles in his notes on the About Time vol 3 new edition (the Pertwee years) regarding the regeneration of the Third Doctor (you can read the whole thing here - beasthouse-lm2.blogspot.com/2010/12/about-about-time-time.html ) But in summary - Rassilon invents regeneration after they defeat the Vampires - what if he stole their regeneration powers? What if Time Lords share similar vulnerabilities that would stop the regenerating that classic vampires have? Interesting. We do know that if both hearts are destroyed, a Time Lord will not regenerate. |
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Post by ugavine on Jan 4, 2011 15:41:04 GMT
Following regeneration the Time Lord is a new man. But he is also the same same man. His old body dies but he has a new one. I've never seen it any different.
As mentioned above a big factor of The Doctors regeneration is that they are all forced, caused by trauma that has damaged his current body beyond repair.
Romana changes because she wants to and even has the option to shift and change her appearance before settling on what she looks like because she chose to regenerate. We've not seen The Doctor ever have this luxury.
It is initeresting that each incarnation seems to hold contempt for their previous incarnations. But then I guess that's like a 40 year old looking back at himself as a teenager and thinking, "did I really used to be like that?"
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Post by Curufea on Jan 4, 2011 21:19:32 GMT
The Doctor's first regeneration wasn't through damage - the Time Lords forced him to regenerate as part of his punishment.
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Post by Kit on Jan 4, 2011 21:50:03 GMT
The Doctor's first regeneration wasn't through damage - the Time Lords forced him to regenerate as part of his punishment. Isn't that his second regeneration at the end of "the War Games?" |
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Post by Curufea on Jan 4, 2011 22:40:12 GMT
Ah yes, sorry - his second
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Post by ugavine on Jan 4, 2011 23:41:05 GMT
The Doctor's first regeneration wasn't through damage - the Time Lords forced him to regenerate as part of his punishment. Not through damage, but still forced and he resists all the way. |
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